♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THE BAD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE NOT REACHED AN AGREEMENT, AND I THINK THAT'S BAD NEWS FOR IRAN MUCH MORE THAN IT'S BAD FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

>> NO DEAL AND MORE ESCALATION AFTER MARATHON TALKS FAILED IN ISLAMABAD.

WHAT COMES NEXT?

I ASK A MILITARY INTELLIGENCE EXPERT.

>>> AND AS AMERICANS FOOT THE BILL FOR THE CONFLICT, ARE FRACTURES EMERGING WITHIN MAGA?

AND WILL IT HURT REPUBLICANS AT THE POLLS?

FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN ADAM KINZINGER WEIGHS IN.

>>> ALSO AHEAD, A POLITICAL EARTHQUAKE.

WHY HUNGARY TURNED THE PAGE ON 16 YEARS UNDER VIKTOR ORBAN'S FAR RIGHT GOVERNMENT.

A FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO THE COUNTRY EXPLAINS.

>>> PLUS IT IS INCREASINGLY HARD FOR YOUNG ADULTS TO BE ABLE TO OBTAIN THE MARKERS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

>> THE MIDDLE CLASS NEW DEAL.

IS THE AMERICAN DREAM STILL WITHIN REACH?

MICHELLE DICKERSON JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS.

♪ >>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLEY WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B.

-- THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANTZ COOPNY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLOOM, COMMITTED TO BRIDGES CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M SITTING IN FOR KHAN APAN POUR.

-- IF ANYTHING IT SEEMS TO BE SLIPPING FURTHER AWAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP IS PUTTING THE GAME SQUARELY ON IRAN, NOW ORDERING THE U.S.

NAVY TO IMPOSE A BLOCKADE ON IRANIAN PORTS AND THREATENING TO SINK ANY IRANIAN SHIPS THAT COME NEAR THEM.

SPEAKING TO REPORTERS AT THE WHITE HOUSE, HE STRESSED THAT HE WON'T LET IRAN, QUOTE, BLACKMAIL THE WORLD.

AND THE PRESIDENT HAS APPEARED UNBOTHERED BY WHETHER THIS COULD STOP IRAN FROM RETURNING TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

>> I DON'T CARE IF THEY DON'T COME BACK OR NOT.

IF THEY DON'T COME BACK, I'M FINE.

THEIR MILITARY IS GONE, AND THEIR MISSILES ARE LARGELY DEPLETED.

THE MANUFACTURING CAPABILITY FOR MISSILES AND DRONES IS LARGELY DEFEATED.

WE'VE BEEN VERY NICE.

WE HAVEN'T RIPPED DOWN TOO MANY BRIDGES.

WE DID ONE ONLY BECAUSE THEY BROKE THEIR WORD.

THEY BROKE THEIR PROMISE.

AND REMEMBER, THEIR PROMISE WAS THAT THEY WERE GOING TO OPEN THE HORMUZ STRAIT.

THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

THEY LIED.

>> WELL, THIS MOVE IS INTENDED TO DELAY DEVASTATING BLOW TO IRAN'S ALREADY FRAGILE ECONOMY, BUT WILL IT FORCE TEHRAN TO CONCEDE DEFEAT.

IRAN'S TOP NEGOTIATOR WARNS AMERICAN CONSUMERS WILL SOON BE, QUOTE, NOSTALGIC FOR LOWER GAS PRICES.

I'M JOINED BY DANNY -- SENIOR FELLOW AT THE INSTITUTE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES AND FORMER HEAD OF THE IRAN BRANCH OF THE ISRAELI MILITARY INTELLIGENCE.

DANNY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT'S GOOD TO HAVE YOU ON.

I'VE BEEN FOLLOWING ALL OF YOUR ANALYSIS ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR A WHILE NOW.

SO, THE U.S.

BLOCKADE HAS NOW OFFICIALLY GONE INTO EFFECT.

IRAN RESPONDING BEFORE THIS EVEN BEGAN BY SAYING THAT NO PORT IN THE REGION WILL NOW BE SAFE.

MILITARY EXPERTS ACKNOWLEDGE THAT GIVEN THE MIGHT OF THE U.S.

NAVY, THEY CAN TECHNICALLY MAINTAIN THIS BLOCKADE.

BUT POLICING OVER 1,300 MILES OF COASTLINE AGAINST IRGC DRONES AND MINES IS A DIFFERENT STORY.

SO, MILITARILY, JUST WALK US THROUGH SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT THE U.S.

WILL BE FACING AS IT INITIATES THIS BLOCKADE.

>> AGAIN, THANK YOU AND GOOD EVENING FROM TEL AVIV.

I HAVE TO SAY THAT JUST BEFORE -- MILITARY ASPECT, I HAVE TO SAY THAT STRATEGY, I DON'T THINK IT WILL CHANGE.

THE IRANIANS HAVE BEEN CAPITULATED -- NOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO -- USING THE MIGHT OF THE AMERICAN NAVY.

BUT THE THING IS WHEN YOU'RE GETTING CLOSER TO THE COASTLINE, THEY'RE EXPOSING THEMSELVES TO THE IRAN CAPABILITY, ESPECIALLY THE DRONES AND THE SURFACE MISSILES THEY STILL HAVE.

THAT IS ONE ASPECT.

SECOND OF COURSE WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THERE ARE GOING TO BE FRICTION BETWEEN THE PRESENCE, THE IRAN PRESENCE IN THE STRAIT AND THE U.S.

PRESENCE OVER THERE.

AND ON TOP OF THAT -- CAN RETALIATE, BY -- BIG QUESTION OF THE -- I THINK THE IRANIANS WILL ALLOW THEM TO CLOSE THE STRAIT AND WHAT THE U.S.

WILL DO, DEPENDING WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID -- MAYBE THERE WILL BE ESCALATION IN THE RELATIONS BETWEEN THE U.S.

AND CHINA.

BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS DESPITE THIS MOVE, THERE IS NO SINGLE SOLUTION TO THE IRANIAN PROBLEM, AND I DON'T THINK IRAN WILL CAPITULATE FROM IT.

>> AND YET THERE DEFINITELY WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT FINANCIAL PRICE THAT IRAN WOULD PAY EACH DAY THAT THIS BLOCKADE IS ENFORCED.

WE'RE TALKING IN HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

YOU MENTIONED CHINA.

AND I'D LIKE TO PICK UP ON THAT POINT.

IT DOES SEEM LIKE CHINA IS THE WILDCARD HERE, OBVIOUSLY THE RECIPIENT OF MORE OIL THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY.

IF THE UNITED STATES HOLDS FIRM, DO YOU THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR NOT ONLY CHINA, BUT OTHER COUNTRIES, INCLUDING INDIA, WHO HAVE BEEN ABLE TO GET THEIR VESSELS THROUGH AND THEIR OIL THROUGH AND DELIVERED, FOR THEM TO NOW PUT MORE PRESSURE ON IRAN WITH THIS BLOCKADE, PREVENTING THEM FROM RECEIVING THE OIL THEY SO DESPERATELY NEED.

>> IN TERMS OF THE IRANIAN STRATEGY, IT'S IMPORTANT TO SAY THE FACT THAT THEY'RE GOING TO SUFFER.

BUT THEY BELIEVE THE WORLD WILL SUFFER MORE AND QUICKLY BECAUSE WE SHOULD THAT IRAN HAS THE UPPER HAND IN THE WAY IN THE LAST 40 DAYS -- OIL -- FROM THE AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION AND OF COURSE THE PRICE OF OIL WAS HIGH.

SO, THEY HAD A LOT OF MONEY.

SO, THEY HAD THIS KIND OF PUSH -- THEY ACTUALLY THINK THAT PRIME WORKS FOR THEM AND NOT AGAINST THEM IN THE WAY THAT UNTIL THEY FEEL THE PRESSURE AND THE IMPLICATION, THE FIRST, SECOND, THIRD IMPLICATIONS OF EVERY ONE OF US IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING -- PRESSURE THE U.S.

TO STOP THIS BLOCKADE.

THEY ARE HOPING ACTUALLY THEY'RE GOING TO BE WITH THE UPPER HAND.

THE CHINESE HAS NO INTENTION OF INTERVENING DIRECTLY -- CORRELATE WITH HOW THE CHINESE WORKING.

THE WAY OF INTERACTING WITH IRAN IN GENERAL.

-- NEGOTIATIONS, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, I DON'T THINK THEY DO SOMETHING DRAMATIC.

OF COURSE -- SOMETHING ELSE, BUT I THINK THAT THEY ARE HOPING THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THEY WILL ENJOY THE FACT THAT THE IRANIANS ARE -- ATTACK US AND THEY COULD STILL ENJOY THE FLOW OF OIL COMING FROM THE GULF ITSELF.

I WOULD NOT RELY ON CHINA TO FIND A PEACEFUL SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM WE ARE FACING RIGHT NOW.

>> THE PRESIDENT IN COMMENTS TO REPORTERS OUTSIDE THE WEST WING SAID THAT THERE HAD BEEN SOME CALLS TOWARD THE U.S.

FROM, QUOTE, APPROPRIATE PEOPLE, THE RIGHT PEOPLE, HE SAID, IN IRAN, AND HE SAYS, THEY WANT A DEAL.

WE DON'T KNOW WHO THESE CALLS WERE FROM, IF THESE CALLS ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE, WHO THEY SPOKE WITH.

BUT IT IS NOTABLE THAT YOU POSTED ON X THAT TREATING SOMEONE LIKE THE PARLIAMENT SPEAKER LIKE DELCY RODRIGUEZ OF VENEZUELA IS PRETENDING THAT IRAN HAS INDEED EXPERIENCED REGIME CHANGE.

AND THE PRESIDENT CONSTANTLY SAYS THAT IN THE SENSE THAT IRAN HAS ALREADY EXPERIENCED REGIME CHANGE.

THE AYATOLLAH HAS BEEN TAKING OUT A NUMBER OF TOP MILITARY BRASS AND OFFICIALS AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS HAVE ALREADY BEEN KILLED.

SO, IS THIS THE PRESIDENT, IN YOUR OPINION, TRYING TO JUSTIFY THE REGIME CHANGE THAT HE -- DEPENDS ON DAY YOU ASK HIM -- WHETHER HE INITIALLY SOUGHT FOR IN THE LAUNCH OF THIS BAR, AND WHY IS -- NOT THE DELCY RODRIGUEZ OF IRAN?

>> MY ANSWER IN TWO SECTIONS.

THE FIRST ONE IS CONNECTING TO THE FACT THAT I THINK BOTH SIDES ARE INTERESTING IN -- IN GENERAL.

THE PROBLEM IS -- THE EXPECTATIONS IN THE WAY THAT, YOU KNOW, BOTH SIDES CAME TO THE NEGOTIATION THINKING THEY HAD THE UPPER HAND.

AND ESPECIALLY THE U.S.

THOUGHT THEY COULD ACTUALLY REACH TOTAL AGREEMENT USING THEIR, OF COURSE -- ON THE BATTLEFIELD.

UNFORTUNATELY IRANIANS HAD THE SAME NOTION, MEANING THAT WE HAD THE UPPER HAND.

WE CAN REQUIRE OUR OWN CONDITIONS TO BE MET.

SO, I THINK THE CHANCES -- DEPENDING HOW THE -- CHANGE FROM BOTH SIDES, ESPECIALLY FROM THE AMERICAN SIDE.

THE GOVERNMENT REGIME -- SAY SOMETHING IMPORTANT.

THERE WAS A CHANGE WITHIN THE REGIME.

WE GOT -- REGIME, CENTRALIZED REGIME, CONTROLLED BY A VERY RADICAL GUY, MUCH MORE THAN HIS FATHER.

IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO REACH AN AGREEMENT WITH THEM.

IT'S VERY HARD EVEN FOR THEM TO FINALIZE SOMETHING TOGETHER BECAUSE OF THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE SYSTEM ITSELF.

THE THING IS I DON'T KNOW PRESIDENT TRUMP OR THE U.S., HE WAS HIGH-RANKING OFFICIAL -- HE WAS THE AIR FORCE COMMANDER.

AND EVEN IF YOU -- SAME DECISION IN ANOTHER COUNTRY.

-- BASIC DEMANDS REGARDING NUCLEAR, REGARDING MISSILES.

SO, I THINK IT'S A HOPELESS CAUSE IN A WAY.

>> PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TODAY TOLD HIS CABINET THAT HE SPOKE WITH J.D.

VANCE AND THE U.S.

GOAL REMAINS OF ZERO ENRICHMENT INSIDE OF IRAN FOR DECADES TO COME.

AND ARGUE THAT ZERO ENRICHMENT IS A FANTASY AND INSTEAD LAID OUT A FRAMEWORK THAT YOU THINK COULD POSSIBLY WORK IN ITS PLACE.

AND YOU ARGUE THAT WASHINGTON SHOULD ACKNOWLEDGE A RIGHT TO LIMITED ENRICHMENT WHILE TEHRAN AGREES TO A TIME DOWN FREEZE OF A FEW YEARS, NOT DECADES, AND ALSO DILUTES ITS EXISTING STOCKPILE IN EXCHANGE FOR SANCTIONS RELIEF.

AT THIS POINT IN THE WAR, WHERE THERE IS ESSENTIALLY ZERO TRUST IN ALL SIDES, WHY WOULD IRAN AGREE TO THIS DEAL ?

AND HOW DO YOU THEN GET THE UNITED STATES AND JERUSALEM ON BOARD WITH IT AS WELL?

>> WELL, ISRAEL WOULD BE AGAINST ANY DEALING WITH IRAN.

IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING.

BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANY WAY TO -- THAT.

YOU WON'T SEE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU TURNING BACK GIVING SPEECHES IN CONGRESS AGAIN, THIS DEAL.

-- TRUMP DECIDE TO DO.

THIS IS ONE ASPECT.

REGARDING NUCLEAR, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER ONE IMPORTANT THING.

IRAN ENRICHMENT IS MUCH MORE A QUESTION OF YES OR NO NUCLEAR BOMB.

IS THERE A TESTIMONY FOR THE TECHNOLOGY OF IRAN?

IT'S A PART OF THE IDEOLOGY OF THE REGIME, LIKE MISSILES AND LIKE -- BUT EVEN BEFORE THE WAR, GENEVA, THEY OFFERED TO DILUTE TO 60% AND OFFERED TO CAP THE ENRICHMENT CAPABILITY THAT THEY HAVE.

SO, I THINK IF U.S.

WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE THE -- NEGOTIATION, SERIOUS NEGOTIATION, BECAUSE NOT REALLY DISCUSSING WHETHER IRANIANS -- THEY'RE NOT ENRICHING RIGHT NOW -- NEED TO FREEZE THEIR ENRICHMENT CAPACITY TO FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS.

WHEN IT'S NUMBERS IN PRINCIPLE, YOU CAN REACH AN AGREEMENT.

BUT -- SAID TODAY IT'S ACTUALLY -- A CHANGE IN THE U.S.

POLICY.

U.S.

POLICY IS NOT CONSISTING ANYMORE ABOUT NO ENRICHMENT WHATSOEVER.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A COMMON LAW TO BE FOUND.

AGAIN, TURNING TO EXPECTATION.

I THINK THE NUCLEAR THING WOULD BE A SUBJECT THEY COULD SOLVE.

I THINK REGARDLESS, RELATED TO MISSILES, IF THE U.S.

WILL -- WORK WITH THIS REGIME IN IRAN.

BUT IN TERMS OF THE ENRICHMENT, IN TERMS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING NOW IN THE NEGOTIATION, THERE IS A RULE -- IT IS SOME SORT OF A -- A RULE TO NEGOTIATE AND MOVING TOWARDS AN AGREEMENT.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE THAT IT'S TIME FOR ISRAEL TO GO BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD AS IT RELATES TO ITS POLICIES, VIS-A-VIS IRAN AND THE REGION, THAT IT ACCOMPLISHED SOME OF ITS MILITARY GOALS BUT STRATEGICALLY IT HASN'T ACCOMPLISHED ANY OF THE MAJOR GOALS IT SET OUT.

FINALLY THE LAST FEW SECONDS WE HAVE HERE, KNOWING THAT A LARGE GROUND INVASION IS ESSENTIALLY OFF THE TABLE HERE -- YOU DON'T HAVE ENOUGH REPUBLICAN SUPPORT FOR THAT -- AS THIS BLOCKADE UNFOLDS, WE DO HAVE A NUMBER OF U.S.

ASSETS AND TROOPS STILL IN THE REGION.

WE HEARD THE PRESIDENT SAY THAT WE HAVE TO COLLECT THE DUST, THE DUST BEING THE HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM BURIED UNDERGROUND.

DO YOU FORESEE THE POSSIBILITY OF A SPECIAL MILITARY OPERATION TO RETRIEVE THAT IN THE SHORT TERM?

>> SURELY IT CAN HAPPEN, BUT PRACTICALLY IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO DO SO.

WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT -- ENRICHED URANIUM ARE NOT IN ONE LOCATION.

IT'S LOCATED IN -- SO WE HAVE TO DO TWO SEPARATE COMMAND ACTIVITIES.

YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO -- TRY TO ATTACK AND OF COURSE THE IRANIANS DON'T KNOW WHERE IT IS, SO THEY HIDE IT.

WE NEED TO FIND IT.

WE NEED TO HAVE CRANE, SPECIAL EQUIPMENT.

AND -- SO THEORETICALLY IT'S POSSIBLE.

PRACTICALLY, I THINK IT'S NOT.

AND I THINK THE SOLUTION TO TAKE OUT -- IS BY THE NEGOTIATION.

THIS IS WHAT -- THIS IS WHY IT'S SO IMPORTANT TO -- IRANIANS ON THIS DECISION.

>> GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP IS ATTACKING AN UNLIKELY TARGET, THE POPE, AFTER THE CATHOLIC LEADER CALLED FOR PEACE IN IRAN.

TRUMP CALLED THE PONTIFF WEAK ON CRIME AND TERRIBLE FOR FOREIGN POLICY.

PRAISED POPE LEO'S MAGA SUPPORTING LEADER CLAIMED THE POPE WAS FINE WITH IRAN GETTING A NUCLEAR WEAPON AND SAID HE ONLY BECAME POPE BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

HE THEN POSTED A PICTURE OF HIMSELF LOOKING LIKE JESUS HEALING THE SICK.

HE DELETED THE PICTURE AND SAID HE THOUGHT IT WAS HIM AS A DOCTOR.

LET'S BRING IN ADAM KINZINGER.

ADAM, I HAVE TO REITERATE EVERYTHING THAT I JUST LAID OUT THERE ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

IT'S ALL TRUE.

IT'S -- IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT -- IT'S NOT HYPERBOLE.

THAT IS THE STATE OF PLAY RIGHT NOW, PRESIDENT TRUMP DOUBLING DOWN, SAYING HE WILL NOT APOLOGIZE TO POPE LEO.

YOU WROTE RECENTLY ON A SUBSECT THAT THE PRESIDENT'S THREAT TO WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE CIVILIZATION IN IRAN DAMAGES AMERICA'S SOUL AND DEFIES ITS MILITARY CORE VALUES.

CAN YOU ELABORATE MORE ON THIS AND, SORT OF, WE/THEN M THE IMPT THAT THIS NEW BATTLE WITH THE POPE, WHAT THAT DOES TO U.S.

STANDING GLOBALLY?

>> YEAH.

LOOK, I MEAN, YOU KNOW, I'M A MILITARY VETERAN.

ONE OF THE THINGS I ALWAYS WAS VERY PROUD OF ABOUT THE UNITED STATES MILITARY MEANT THAT WE WERE SEAMLESS AND WE NEVER GOT ANYTHING WRONG.

BUT WE DID HAVE A CODE OF HONOR.

THAT CODE OF HONOR WAS WE DID OUR BEST TO BASICALLY FOLLOW THE LAW OF FOREIGN CONFLICT TO ENSURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE WEREN'T INTENTIONALLY BOMBING CIVILIANS, RIGHT?

YOU TRY TO ACHIEVE THE OBJECTIVE AND NOT CREATE ANY MORE HARM THAN POSSIBLE.

WHAT DONALD TRUMP DID IN THAT FIRST TWEET IS BASICALLY -- REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE ACTION ENDS UP COMING FROM THAT, YOU DESTROY OUR MORAL AUTHORITY, WHICH IS SOMETHING I THINK WORKED VERY WELL FOR THE UNITED STATES UNTIL RECENTLY.

SAME THING HAPPENS, BY THE WAY, WHEN YOU BOMB CIVILIAN BOATS IN THE CARIBBEAN, OR SPECIFICALLY WHEN YOU DO THE SECOND OR THIRD MISSILE STRIKE AND THERE'S A COUPLE OF GUYS HANGING OFF THE BOAT SIMPLY TRYING TO SURVIVE.

IT DAMAGES OUR SOUL.

AND THAT HAS A MORAL IMPACT NOT JUST FROM, YOU KNOW, US AND HOW WE FEEL BUT IN OUR ABILITY TO ACTUALLY DO FOREIGN POLICY.

THE MORE WE DESTROY THAT, I THINK THE MORE IT'S LIKELY WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO USE MILITARY FORCE BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T TRUST US, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE NEAR US, THEY DON'T BELIEVE IT.

SO, THE POPE STUFF IS, LIKE -- LOOK, THERE'S NEVER BEEN A WAR THE U.S.

HAS ENGAGED IN WHERE THE POPE, WHOEVER IT WAS, USUALLY DIDN'T SAY, WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID WAR.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE SEASON THE PRESIDENT DIRECTLY TAKE THE POPE ON, AND ESPECIALLY AN AMERICAN POPE WHO IS VERY WELL-LOVED IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT JUST GOES TO SHOW ME THAT TRUMP IS LIKE -- IT FEELS LIKE HE'S REALLY LOSING HIS GRIP ON REALITY OR AT LEAST HIS GRIP ON POLITICS, WHICH HE ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, USED TO BE GOOD AT BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

>> HOW DOES THIS FEUD -- OR MAYBE ONE-SIDED FEUD -- WITH THE POPE, HOW DOES THAT PLAY POLITICALLY FOR THE PRESIDENT?

MAYBE WE TAKE HIS MAGA SUPPORT BASE OUT OF THIS.

BUT JUST WITH INDEPENDENT VOTERS, WITH CATHOLIC VOTERS, AND WITH REPUBLICANS WHO ARE NOT IDEOLOGICALLY ALIGNED, NECESSARILY, WITH THE PRESIDENT?

>> THIS IS WHERE HE'S DOING DAMAGE TO HIMSELF BECAUSE IN THE DEEP MAGA SPHERE -- LOOK, IF YOU CALL YOURSELF MAGA, YOU CALL YOURSELF THAT BECAUSE YOU SPECIFICALLY HAVE AN AFFECTION OR A LOVE FOR DONALD TRUMP.

AND IT'S REALLY NOT ABOUT POLICY.

IT'S, LIKE -- IT'S A HIM THING, RIGHT?

I CALL IT A CULT FOR A REASON.

BUT THE FEW REPUBLICANS THAT EXIST -- AND THERE'S A HANDFUL -- THAT DON'T CALL THEMSELVES MAGA, THESE INDEPENDENTS, HE'S CERTAINLY LOST ALL KIND OF LEANING DEMOCRATS.

BUT THOSE PEOPLE HAVE TURNED AGAINST HIM IN A HUGE WAY, WHICH IS WHY YOU'RE SEEING POTENTIALLY NOVEMBER IS GOING TO BE LIKE A HUNGARY-LEVEL LANDSLIDE FOR THE DEMOCRATS BECAUSE PEOPLE THAT MAYBE HAVE NEVER VOTED DEMOCRATIC OR USUALLY JUST DON'T VOTE DURING A MIDTERM ARE GOING TO VOTE.

AND THAT'S WHERE THE DIFFERENCE IS WITH, LIKE, HOW DUMB IT IS TO TAKE ON CATHOLICS AND HOW DUMB IT IS TO TAKE ON CHRISTIANS IS MAYBE THEY WERE NEVER WITH YOU.

MAYBE SOME OF THEM WERE.

BUT NOW THEY'RE REALLY ANGRY.

AND THEY'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY VOTE IN THE MIDTERM.

AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, MIDTERMS USUALLY HAVE ABOUT HALF THE TURNOUT YOU HAVE FOR A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

SO, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, AS MUCH AS I DON'T LIKE DONALD TRUMP, ONE OF THE THINGS I WOULD ALWAYS SAY ABOUT HIM IS HE HAS THIS, LIKE, ABILITY TO FEEL HIS BASE AND UNDERSTAND WHAT HIS BASE VOTER WANTS.

THIS MAKES ME THINK HE IS LOSING GRIP ON THAT OR HE DOESN'T CARE BECAUSE THIS WAS DONE POLITICALLY.

>> SPEAKING TO THE LARGER ISSUE OF THE WAR, SOME OF THE RISKS HE'S WILLING TO TAKE HERE -- ON FOX NEWS THIS WEEKEND ADMITTING GAS PRICES COULD REMAIN AS HIGH AS THEY ARE, PERHAPS HIGHER, COME THE MIDTERMS IN NOVEMBER.

TO YOUR POINT THAT HE DOESN'T CARE, PERHAPS, I MEAN, HE'S NOT ON THE BALLOT.

OBVIOUSLY REPUBLICANS ARE AND CONTROL OF THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE ARE ON THE BALLOT.

BUT IS THERE, DO YOU THINK, THE POSSIBILITY THAT THE PRESIDENT IS THINKING LONGER TERM ABOUT HIS LEGACY AND IF INDEED HE BELIEVES THAT HE CAN BE THE PRESIDENT THAT BROUGHT IN REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER AND TOOK AWAY THE NUCLEAR THREAT THAT ALL OF THIS COULD BE WORTH IT?

>> IT'S POSSIBLE.

I JUST -- I HAVE A HARD TIME SEEING THAT THIS DEEP-SEEDED NARCISSIST ACTUALLY REALLY CARES MUCH ABOUT HIS LEGACY.

IT'S MORE ABOUT THIS CURRENT MOMENT.

LOOK, IF HE WANTED TO DO REAL REGIME CHANGE IN IRAN, WE ACTUALLY COULD DO IT.

WE WOULD HAVE TO SEND GROUND TROOPS, AND IT WOULD BE VERY BLOODY AND MESSY.

SO, THE FACT THAT HE'S NOT WILLING TO DO THAT, I DON'T KNOW IF REGIME CHANGE IS HIS FINAL LEGACY.

I JUST THINK HE'S -- SINCE HE IS NOT ON THE BALLOT IN NOVEMBER, HE DOESN'T CARE AS MUCH BECAUSE IT'S NOT ABOUT HIM.

KEEP IN MIND, DONALD TRUMP CALLED HIMSELF A DEMOCRAT JUST UNTIL BASICALLY HE STARTED RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

SO, HE'S NOT SOMEBODY THAT HAS THIS DEEP AFFECTION FOR REPUBLICAN VALUES.

IN FACT, I WOULD ARGUE -- WHICH IS THE REASON I BASICALLY LEFT THE GOP -- THAT GOP VALUES ARE NOT -- IN FACT, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS GOTTEN RID OF ALL OF THE VALUES TO SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP.

AND I THINK WHAT WOULD WORK WITH HIM -- SO, IF I WAS A REPUBLICAN LEADER TALKING TO HIM, I WOULD SAY, LOOK, YOU ARE GOING TO BE TIED UP IN INVESTIGATIONS FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS OF YOUR PRESIDENCY UNLESS WE WIN THE MAJORITY.

AND I THINK THAT MAY DO A LITTLE BIT TO MOTIVATE HIM.

BUT THERE IS -- IT'S CLEAR WHEN HE'S UP AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING TWEETING AND POSTING AND EVERYTHING ELSE, THIS IS NOT SOMEBODY THAT'S SITTING AROUND THINKING ABOUT WHAT THE BEST POLITICAL MOVE FOR HIM TO DO IS.

THIS IS A MAN THAT'S DRIVEN BY THE EMOTION OF THE MOMENT.

AND THAT IS VERY DANGEROUS WHEN YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT OF THE MOST POWERFUL MILITARY IN THE WORLD.

>> YEAH.

AND TO BE OBJECTIVE HERE, HE IS NOT THE FIRST PRESIDENT TO BYPASS CONGRESS FOR AN AUMF AS IT RELATES TO FOREIGN ENTANGLEMENTS.

BUT IT IS NOTABLE THAT WHEN THE QUESTION HAS CONSTANTLY COME UP AS TO WHEN REPUBLICANS WOULD DRAW A RED LINE AND WHAT THAT WOULD BE ABOUT, IT DOES SEEM TO FALL WITH U.S.

BOOTS AND TROOPS ON THE GROUND.

SO, GIVEN THAT, WHAT -- WHAT DO YOU THINK ARE THE MILITARY OPTIONS THAT HE HAS THAT COULD BE MOST EFFECTIVE RIGHT NOW, GIVEN THE SITUATION IN IRAN, GIVEN THAT WE'RE THERE FOR SIX-PLUS WEEKS, AND THIS BLOCKADE THAT HAS JUST GONE INTO EFFECT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THIS IS THE BIG KEY IS, LOOK, I DON'T LIKE DONALD TRUMP, BUT WE, MY KID, MY FAMILY, AMERICANS, ARE GOING TO HAVE -- AND THE WORLD ACTUALLY -- ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS MUCH LONGER THAN DONALD TRUMP.

SO, I DON'T WANT TO LET MY DISLIKE OF DONALD TRUMP AFFECT WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD DO NOW.

I WOULDN'T HAVE LAUNCHED THIS WAR, BUT THE FACT IS WE'RE IN IT.

SO, WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

AND I THINK QUITE HONESTLY, PROBABLY THIS BLOCKADE, ALTHOUGH IF HE DID IT SELECTIVELY AGAINST IRANIAN OIL, THAT MAY BE SMART.

I DO THINK THE CARD ISLAND OPERATION HAS MERIT, BUT IT'S VERY DANGEROUS, WHICH IS BASICALLY NOW YOU'RE INFLICTING STRONG ECONOMIC PRESSURE AND STRONG MOTIVATION ON IRAN TO BASICALLY COME TO THE TABLE.

BUT I THINK WHEN HE STOPPED BOMBING AND THEN PUT A RED LINE IN TERMS OF USING GROUND TROOPS, I THINK HE TOOK A LOT OF HIS OPTIONS OFF THE TABLE.

EVEN IF HE NEVER INTENDED TO INTRODUCE A LARGE AMOUNT OF GROUND TROOPS, YOU NEVER WANT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE YOU WANT YOUR ENEMY TO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE THINKING.

AND HE WAS EVERY DAY MAKING COMMENTS AND TWEETS AND EVERYTHING ELSE ARGUING WITH HIMSELF, AND THAT SENT A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE TO THE IRANIAN REGIME WHICH IS, WE JUST HAVE TO WAIT THIS GUY OUT BECAUSE HE WANTS OUT OF THIS.

I THINK THAT'S SOME OF THE BIG MISTAKES HE MADE JUST TACTICALLY ON THIS.

>> THE REGIME KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT THE AMERICAN PUBLIC WANTS, ANDS THAT LOWER GAS PRICES.

A LOT OF THIS DOES SEEM TO HINGE AT THIS POINT ON HOW FAR THE UNITED STATES IS WILLING TO PUSH OR STAND UP TO CHINA.

AND CHINA'S ROLE TO ALL OF THIS, FINALLY GETTING IRAN TO BACK DOWN.

DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT WHO SAYS HE HAS A GREAT RELATIONSHIP WITH XI, HAS POSTPONED HIS MEETING IN BEIJING NOW FOR MAY, DO YOU THINK HE ULTIMATELY WILL BE ABLE TO STAND UP TO CHINA?

>> NO.

HE HASN'T YET.

I MEAN, HE CAN'T EVEN STAND UP TO RUSSIA, WHICH IS A FAILING, COLLAPSING COUNTRY THAT'S LOSING TO UKRAINE.

HE CAN'T EVEN FIND THE COURAGE TO STAND UP TO THEM.

I MEAN, I WAS IN THE OVAL OFFICE WHEN HE CAME IN WITH A GROUP OF SEVEN OR EIGHT OF US IN CONGRESS AND ASKED US TO PLEASE TAKE CHINA ZTE OFF OF OUR SANCTIONS LIST IN A BILL BECAUSE XI JINPING CALLED HIM AND ASKED HIM PERSONALLY FOR A FAVOR.

THAT'S NOT A GUY WHO WANTS TO STAND UP AND DEFEND AMERICA AGAINST CHINA.

THAT'S SOMEBODY WHO FRANKLY DOES NOT HAVE THE COURAGE TO DO IT.

SO, NO, I DON'T THINK HE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO STAND UP TO CHINA TO STOP THIS.

THE FACT IS, IF HE ACTUALLY DID, HE COULD ACTUALLY BE SUCCESSFUL AND THEN FORCING A BETTER COMPROMISE WITH THE IRANIAN REGIME.

THERE'S SOMETHING -- SOME BLIND SPOT OR SOMETHING I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT EXISTS WITHIN HIM.

>> WELL, AND ALSO NEW CNN REPORTING THAT U.S.

INTELLIGENCE SAYS BEIJING IS PLANNING TO SEND NEW AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS TO HELP IRAN REBUILD WHAT AMERICA HAS SPENT WEEKS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS TAKING OUT.

SIMILAR TO RUSSIA'S POSITION HERE.

SO, I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE QUESTION AS TO WHY THE PRESIDENT CAN'T STAND UP TO EITHER ONE OF THOSE LEADERS.

ADAM KINZINGER, ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> ANY TIME.

YOU BET.

>>> AND NOW DONALD TRUMP, THREW THE WEIGHT OF THE WHITE HOUSEN BEHIND HUNGARY'S STRONG MAN LEADER, VIKTOR ORBAN, AND IT DIDN'T MATTER.

VOTERS OUSTED ORBAN AFTER 16 YEARS IN POWER.

EU LEADERS WERE DELIGHTED BY THE RESULTS.

ORBAN HAD BEEN A THORN IN THE BLOC'S SIDE FOR YEARS.

DAVID -- WAS THE U.S.

AMBASSADOR IN BUDAPEST UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.

WE SHOULD REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT YOU CONSTANTLY CLASHED WITH THE ORBAN GOVERNMENT OVER ITS DEMOCRATIC BACKSLIDING WHICH HAD TRANSPIRED OVER HIS 16 YEARS IN OFFICE.

SO, GIVEN THE SYSTEM THAT HE WAS ABLE TO BUILD OVER THAT TIME, GERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS, STATE CAPTURED MEDIA, PACKING THE COURTS, WERE YOU SURPRISED BY NOT ONLY HIS LOSS, BUT THE MARGIN AT WHICH PETER MAGER WAS ABLE TO COME OUT THE VICTOR.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

FIRST LET ME START BY SAYING I'VE NOTICED THAT MANY GOVERNMENTS HAVE CONGRATULATED THE HUNGARIAN PEOPLE ON THE ELECTION, INCLUDING RUSSIA.

AND TO DATE THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS NOT DONE SO.

AS A FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR TO HUNGARY, LET ME SAY THIS HAS BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY EXERCISE IN STRENGTH AND BRAVERY AND DEMOCRACY IS TO WATCH FROM AFAR.

AND IN ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION, IT IS -- IT IS A SURPRISE THAT A CANDIDATE IN AN ENVIRONMENT AS CONTROLLED AS THE ONE THAT VIKTOR ORBAN HAS CREATED OVER 16 YEARS, AND CONTROL IS ABLE TO EMERGE AND BREAK THROUGH AND CONNECT WITH CONSTITUENCIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY -- I MEAN, PETER MAGER WAS GENERATING RALLIES AND MOVEMENTS AND HUGE PRESENCE OF VOTERS IN CONSTITUENCIES IN RURAL HUNGARY THAT WERE THOUGHT OF AS COMPLETELY WRITTEN OFF TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF ORBAN AND THE MOVEMENT.

SO, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOUR VIEWERS TO UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR THIS ENTIRE 16-YEAR PERIOD, ORBAN HAS EFFECTIVELY BEEN USING A PROPAGANDA APPARATUS TO DISTRACT HUNGARIANS FROM THINGS THAT ARE REAL WITH THINGS THAT ARE NOT.

HE HAS TOLD THEM STORIES ABOUT CIVILIZATIONAL STRUGGLES AND ABOUT BRUSSELS ATTEMPTING TO INVADE AND UNDERMINE HUNGARINESS, HUNGARIANS HAVING TO GO TO UKRAINE AND GIVE UP THEIR LIVES IN A WAR.

BUT MEANWHILE, HUNGARIANS ARE WATCHING THEIR ECONOMY BECOME THE POOREST ECONOMY IN EUROPE.

THEY'RE WATCHING THEIR COUNTRY BECOME THE MOST CORRUPT COUNTRY IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS.

SO, THERE'S A DISCONNECT BETWEEN WHAT THEY'RE BEING TOLD BY THEIR GOVERNMENT AND THEIR LIVED EXPERIENCE.

AND PETER MAGER WENT STRAIGHT AFTER THAT IN A VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE MANNER.

>> SO, THEN DO YOU THINK THIS ELECTION SHOULD BE INTERPRETED AS A REPUDIATION TOWARDS THE TILT OF POPULISM IN EUROPE, BUT AROUND THE WORLD, OR A FOCUS MORE SPECIFICALLY ON KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES LIKE THE ECONOMY AND, AS YOU NOTED, CORRUPTION?

>> IT WASN'T A FOCUS ON KITCHEN TABLE ISSUES.

I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION.

PETER MAGER, EVEN IN HIS PRESS CONFERENCE THIS MORNING, REFERS TO VIKTOR ORBAN AND VIKTOR ORBAN'S GOVERNMENT AS A CRIMINAL ORGANIZATION.

WHAT PETER MAGER RAN AND WON ON WAS ATTACKING A SYSTEM, A SYSTEM OF KLEPTOCRACY, A SYSTEM OF CORRUPTION, AND THEN, TO YOUR POINT, CONNECTING THAT WITH PEOPLE'S LIVED EXPERIENCE, CONNECTING THAT WITH THE FACT THAT THEIR HOSPITALS ARE SWELTERINGLY HOT IS BECAUSE THESE GUYS ARE STEALING FROM YOU.

BUT I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS, ONE OF THE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED, IF THERE ARE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED, IS THIS WASN'T A POLICY DEBATE.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, CANDIDLY, I THINK A LOT OF US HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT ARE GOING TO BE PETER MAGER'S POLICIES, AND HE MAY NOT KNOW WHAT HIS POLICIES ARE.

WHAT PETER MAGER FOCUSED ON WAS ON KLEPTOCRACY AND CORRUPTION AND THE NEED FOR THERE TO BE TRANSPARENCY AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND THAT BROUGHT HUNGARIANS TO THE STREET IN A WAY I THINK NO ONE COULD HAVE PREDICTED.

>> IT IS NOTABLE THAT AS YOU MENTIONED, THE WHITE HOUSE HAS NOT PUT OUT A STATEMENT CONGRATULATING PETER MAGER YET.

>> TO DATE.

>> AND PRESIDENT PUTIN OR THE KREMLIN DID ISSUE SOMEWHAT OF A STATEMENT SAYING THEY WOULD BE OPEN TO WORKING WITH WHOEVER IS IN GOVERNMENT.

ANOTHER ALLY, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, WHO I THINK ALSO RECENTLY CONGRATULATED PETER MAGER.

SO, IF THAT IS TRUE THAT THE WHITE HOUSE HAS YET TO PUT OUT AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT, THAT IS SOMETHING WORTH NOTING.

VIKTOR ORBAN WAS RATHER QUICK TO CONCEDE HIS LOSS.

AND HERE WAS HIS MESSAGE TO HUNGARIAN VOTERS.

>> Translator: DIFFERENCE, THE ELECTION RESULT IS NOT FINAL YET, BUT IT IS UNDERSTANDABLE AND CLEAR.

THE ELECTION RESULT IS PAINFUL FOR US, BUT CLEAR.

THE RESPONSIBILITY AND POSSIBILITY OF GOVERNING WAS NOT GIVEN TO US.

I'VE CONGRATULATED THE WINNER.

>> SO, MAGER'S PARTY DID WIN A SUPER-MAJORITY, WHICH GIVES HIM A LOT MORE LEVERAGE IN PURSUING HIS POLICIES, WHATEVER THEY MAY BE.

BUT WE ALSO HEARD ORBAN SAY HE WILL REMAIN LEADING THE OPPOSITION.

SO, GIVEN EVERYTHING THAT HE'S BEEN ABLE TO CEMENT IN THE GOVERNMENT OVER THE PAST 16 YEARS AND WITHIN ITS P INSTITUTIONS, WHAT ROLE DO YOU THINK HE COULD CONTINUE TO PLAY IN GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, A SIGNIFICANT ONE.

I MEAN, THE CHALLENGE NOW FOR TZA AND FOR MAGER IS TO UNWIND THE STATE CAPTURE OF WHAT WERE PUBLIC ASSETS AND HAVE BEEN TRANSFORMED INTO THE ASSETS OF A POLITICAL PARTY.

WHAT WILL BE THE MINORITY POLITICAL PARTY.

BY THAT I MEAN TAKE THE UNIVERSITIES IN HUNGARY.

PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES IN HUNGARY WERE MOVED FROM CONTROL OF THE PUBLIC PURSE, AND THEY CREATED FOUNDATIONS.

AND THE BOARDS OF DIRECTORS OF THOSE FOUNDATIONS WERE APPOINTED FOR LIFETIME TENURE.

AND THEY WERE ALL ORBAN LOYALISTS.

SO, THEY EFFECTIVELY MOVED THE ASSETS OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM FROM PUBLIC CONTROL TO A POLITICAL PARTY'S CONTROL.

IF TZA IS GOING TO STAND A CHANCE OF REINVIGORATING HUNGARY'S DEMOCRATIC INSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTIONS, JUDICIAL INSTITUTIONS, THERE'S GOING TO NEED TO BE A WHOLE SCALE UNWINDING.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAGER SAID LAST NIGHT, WHICH I FOUND IMPORTANT AND NOTEWORTHY IS THAT HE BEGAN TO LIST ALL OF THE SENIOR PUBLIC OFFICIALS THAT NEED TO SUBMIT THEIR RESIGNATION, BEGINNING WITH THE PRESIDENT OF HUNGARY, BECAUSE IT'S SIMPLY NOT GOING TO BE FEASIBLE FOR A GOVERNMENT THAT IS NOW -- GOVERNMENT STRUCTURES THAT ARE NOW ENTIRELY CONTROLLED BY LOYALISTS TO AN INDIVIDUAL, BEING VIKTOR ORBAN, TO ADOPT A DIFFERENT APPROACH AND DIFFERENT POLICY.

AND THE OTHER THING I WOULD JUST NOTE IS THIS FOCUS ON CORRUPTION.

I MEAN, YOU HEAR HIM EVEN, PETER MAGER, THIS MORNING SPEAKING ABOUT THE NEED FOR AN INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATIVE EFFORT AND ASSET COLLECTION AND TRACING.

I MEAN, THIS HAS BEEN A VERY LUCRATIVE TIME FOR THOSE FAMILY AND FRIENDS OF VIKTOR ORBAN.

AND I THINK THAT IF HUNGARY IS TO REPAIR ITS ECONOMY AND RESTORE ITS RIGHTFUL PLACE WITHIN THE EUROPEAN UNION, THERE'S GOING TO NEED TO BE A DEGREE OF ACCOUNTABILITY TO FOLLOW.

>> WELL, AND THERE'S ALSO GOING TO BE, SORT OF, MORE EXPLICIT OUTLINING OF WHAT HIS POLICIES ARE.

WE KNOW THAT HE WAS A PART OF THE -- GOVERNMENT AND PARTY UNTIL A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO.

HE KNOWS ORBAN VERY WELL.

HE HIMSELF AND HIS PARTY IS A CENTER-RIGHT PARTY WHERE THEY DIFFERED OBVIOUSLY ON THE ISSUES OF CORRUPTION, ON HOW TO ADDRESS THE ECONOMY, AND ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AND MAGER SAID THAT HE WOULD REDUCE HUNGARY'S DEPENDENCE ON RUSSIAN ENERGY BY 2035.

SO, STILL A WHILE OUT THAT HUNGARY WILL HAVE TO DEPEND ON SOME SORT OF ENERGY COMING FROM RUSSIA.

BUT HE SAID HE'S GOING TO STRIVE FOR PRAGMATIC RELATIONS WITH MOSCOW.

AND SPEAKING TODAY, HERE'S WHAT HE SAID ABOUT PUTIN'S WAR SPECIFICALLY.

>> Translator: VLADIMIR PUTIN CALLS ME, I WILL PICK UP THE PHONE.

BUT I WILL NOT CALL MYSELF.

BUT IF WE WERE TO SPEAK, I CAN SAY I WILL ASK HIM TO PLEASE STOP THE KILLING AFTER FOUR YEARS, STOP THE WAR THAT HAS NO POINT AT ALL FOR THEM EITHER.

TENS OF THOUSANDS -- OR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF RUSSIANS ALSO DIED AND FAMILIES DESTROYED, INCLUDING RUSSIAN-SPEAKING PEOPLE LIVING IN UKRAINE, KILLING THEM, BOMBARDING THEIR CITIES, RAPING THEM, ET CETERA.

BUT THIS IS WHAT I WILL TELL HIM, AND I THINK THAT WILL BE A VERY BRIEF DISCUSSION.

I'M AFRAID THAT HE WILL NOT STOP ACTING ON MY ADVICE, BUT I HOPE THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO END THE WAR SOON.

>> SO, DESPITE THEIR CLOSE TIES, VIKTOR ORBAN PUBLICLY SAID HE WAS NEVER PRO-RUSSIA.

HE WAS JUST ANTI-WAR.

WHAT IS THE MESSAGE AND POLICY GOING TO BE NOW FROM PETER MAGER, AS IT RELATES TO UKRAINE?

>> FIRST LET ME QUIBBLE WITH THE PRIME MINISTER'S CHARACTERIZATION OF THIS POLICY.

HIS POLICY WAS NOT JUST ANTI-WAR.

AND IN FACT ON ISSUE AFTER ISSUE, MOSCOW COULD CONTINUE TO RELY ON VIKTOR ORBAN'S BUDAPEST TO ADVANCE ITS INTEREST IN INTERNATIONAL -- THAT WAS SOMETHING MORE FUNDAMENTAL.

YOU'RE RIGHT TO RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT PETER MAGER'S ISSUES WILL BE.

THERE ARE QUESTION MARKS AROUND WHERE HE WILL COME OUT ON MANY OF THESE.

BUT ONE THING THAT IS ALREADY DIFFERENT AND VERY CLEAR FROM THE STATEMENTS HE'S MADE AND THE CAMPAIGN THAT HE'S RUN IS THAT HE WILL CHANGE THE PRACTICE OF VIKTOR ORBAN'S HUNGARY OF INSTRUMENTALIZING THEIR MEMBERSHIP IN WHAT ARE CONSENSUS-BASED ORGANIZATIONS, LIKE THE EUROPEAN UNION, LIKE THE NATO ALLIANCE, IN ORDER TO BASICALLY LEVERAGE THEIR VETO IN THESE ORGANIZATIONS TO SECURE PERSONAL PECUNIARY POLITICAL INTERESTS OF VIKTOR ORBAN AND HIS POLITICAL PARTY.

THAT IS A TREMENDOUS STEP FORWARD.

WE HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH OUR ALLIES ON ANY NUMBER OF ISSUES, BUT WHAT WE EXPECT FROM OUR ALLIES IS ALLIANCE, A COMMITMENT TO A SET OF VALUES AND PRINCIPLES.

AND I THINK HUNGARY HAS TAKEN A TREMENDOUS STEP FORWARD IN THAT REGARD.

>> WE'LL SEE HOW PRESIDENT TRUMP RESPONDS TO ALL OF THIS, WHETHER THERE WILL INDEED BE A PHONE CALL MADE AT SOME POINT TO CONGRATULATE PETER MAGER WITH HIS WIN.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

>>> NOW, OWNING A HOME, HAVING A STABLE JOB, AND A WELL-FUNDED RETIREMENT PLAN.

ALL OF THESE ARE KEY ATTRIBUTES OF AMERICA'S MIDDLE CLASS.

BUT MANY YOUNG AMERICANS FEAR ATTAINING MIDDLE CLASS STATUS IS INCREASINGLY OUT OF REACH.

THAT'S ACCORDING TO MICHELLE DICKERSON, AUTHOR OF "THE MIDDLE CLASS NEW DEAL: RESTORING UPWARD MOBILITY AND THE AMERICAN DREAM."

SHE TELLS WALTER ISAACSON WHY THE MIDDLE CLASS WAS ESTABLISHED AND WHY IT'S STRUGGLING TODAY.

>> THANK YOU, BIANCA.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR BOOK IS "THE MIDDLE CLASS NEW DEAL."

IT'S FILLED WITH PRESCRIPTIONS FOR HOW WE CAN RESTORE A SECURE MIDDLE CLASS IN THE UNITED STATES.

LET'S START WITH HOW DID WE GET A MIDDLE CLASS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IT'S NOT PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

IT WAS CREATED BY POLICIES.

>> IT WAS PART OF RECENT AMERICAN POLICY.

EVERYONE WANTS TO PRETEND WE'VE ALWAYS HAD A MIDDLE CLASS.

WE HAVEN'T.

POLITICAL LEADERS DECIDED AFTER THE DEPRESSION AND WORLD WAR II THAT WE NEEDED TO HAVE A STABLE MIDDLE CLASS.

WE NEEDED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE LARGE, SORT OF, SWATH OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY COULD BE STABLE.

AND THEY DID THAT BY CREATING THE MIDDLE CLASS.

>> AND THEY DID IT THROUGH THINGS LIKE HOUSING, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS WHAT WE'RE NOT DOING NOW, RIGHT?

AND TELL ME ALL THE THINGS THEY DID.

>> YEAH.

THEY DECIDED THAT WE DON'T WANT TO KEEP THE DEPRESSION -- PRE-DEPRESSION MODEL, WHERE PEOPLE HAVE TO COME UP WITH 50% FOR A DOWN PAYMENT, WHERE THEY HAVE TO TAKE OUT A MORTGAGE LOAN THAT'S THREE TO FIVE YEARS, WHICH MEANT THAT AT THE END OF FIVE YEARS, PEOPLE DIDN'T OWN THE HOME.

THEY THEN HAD TO TAKE ANOTHER LOAN IN ORDER TO ACTUALLY BE A HOMEOWNER BECAUSE THEIR LOANS AT THAT TIME DIDN'T AMORTIZE.

SO, AT THE END OF THE FIVE YEARS, THEY STILL OWED MONEY ON THEIR HOMES.

ALTHOUGH WE THINK THE MORTGAGE LOANS WE HAVE NOW ARE THE NORM AND WE'VE ALWAYS HAD THAT, WE DIDN'T.

POLITICAL LEADERS DECIDED THAT THEY NEEDED TO GIVE BANKS ENCOURAGEMENT TO BE ABLE TO CONVINCE BANKS, LET PEOPLE TAKE OUT A LONG-TERM LOAN, REPAY IT OVER TIME, TO BE ABLE TO BUY HOMES.

SO, WHEN WE HAVE THE FHA PROGRAM, WHICH EVERYONE THINKS, OH, WELL, THAT'S THE WAY THAT WE CAN -- THAT WE'VE ALWAYS ALLOWED PEOPLE TO BUY HOMES.

NO.

WE HAVE THAT BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT CREATED IT.

>> YOU SAY IT CAME OUT OF THE DEPRESSION.

OF COURSE IN THE BOOK YOU ALSO DESCRIBE IT CAME OUT OF WORLD WAR II.

VETERANS COMING BACK.

SO, YOU HAVE VETERANS ASSOCIATION LOANS AND OTHER THINGS.

WHAT DID THE VETERAN-TYPE BENEFITS DO TO CREATE A MIDDLE CLASS?

AND WAS THAT DONE JUST INTENTIONALLY TO CREATE A MIDDLE CLASS OR JUST OUT OF OBLIGATION TO PEOPLE COMING BACK FROM WORLD WAR II?

>> I WOULD HOPE IT WAS OBLIGATION.

I WOULD SUSPECT -- I MEAN, I WASN'T THERE.

I WOULD SUSPECT IT WAS ALSO A BIT OF PR, THAT YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING SO THAT THE SERVICEMEN -- AND ALTHOUGH THERE WERE SOME SERVICEWOMEN, IT WAS MOSTLY MEN -- COMING BACK FROM WAR CAN GET A NEW START.

SO, THEY DID THAT THROUGH THE GI BILL.

AND THE VA LOANS.

SO, BY ALLOWING RETURNING SERVICEMEN TO BE ABLE TO BUY HOMES CHEAPLY USING VA LOANS, TO BE ABLE TO TAKE THE MONEY WITH THE GI BILL, TO BE ABLE TO EITHER GO GET A BACHELOR'S DEGREE OR EVEN GET TRAINING THROUGH A TRADE SCHOOL OR A COMMUNITY COLLEGE-TYPE DEGREE, WE TOLD OUR RETURNING SERVICEMEN, COME BACK, GO TO SCHOOL, BUY A HOME, BUILD SOME HOUSEHOLD WEALTH, AND YOU'LL BE STABLE AND SECURE.

>> LET ME READ YOU A SENTENCE FROM THE BOOK TALKING ABOUT THAT NOT BEING THE NORM ANYMORE.

YOU SAY, BECAUSE OF MY PARENTS' GRIT, HARD WORK, AND DETERMINATION TO BECOME AND REMAIN MIDDLE CLASS, I AM FINANCIALLY SECURE.

BUT THE NEXT SENTENCE SAYS, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS FOR MY SONS, THOUGH.

YOU'VE GOT TWO SONS.

>> YES.

>> TELL ME WHY YOU'RE NOT SURE THIS WILL CONTINUE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS WE ARE SEEING IN THIS COUNTRY, I SEE IT A LOT BECAUSE I TEACH BOTH LAW STUDENTS AND I ALSO SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH UNDERGRADUATES, MOSTLY STUDENT ATHLETES AT THE UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS, IS THE FEAR AND THE DESPAIR COMING FROM OUR YOUNG ADULTS.

MY SONS ARE 22 AND 25, SO THEY ARE IN THAT AGE BAND.

AND I WOULD SAY REALLY ALL THE YOUNG ADULTS UNDER THE AGE OF 40.

THEY'RE SAYING, WE DID EVERYTHING RIGHT.

WE GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL.

WE REALIZED WE HAVE TO GO TO COLLEGE BECAUSE THE TYPES OF JOBS THAT OUR PARENTS OR OUR GRANDPARENTS WERE ABLE TO GET WHEN THEY GRADUATED FROM HIGH SCHOOL, THOSE JOBS AREN'T THERE ANYMORE.

SO, THEY WORK HARD AND THEY GO TO COLLEGE.

MANY OF THEM HAVE HAD TO DROWN THEMSELVES IN STUDENT LOAN DEBT TO GET THE DEGREE.

BUT EVEN THOSE WHOSE PARENTS MAY HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HELP THEM GO TO COLLEGE AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO TAKE OUT A LOT OF DEBT ARE NOW COMING OUT IN A MARKET WHERE THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATES FOR THE GRADUATES OF THE CLASS OF 2025 ARE -- WE DON'T SEE THOSE OUTSIDE OF A RECESSION.

SO, I WORRY ABOUT THE FUTURE THAT WE ARE LEAVING FOR OUR YOUNG ADULTS.

AND WE SEE THAT A LOT IN THEY'RE DESPAIR AND IN THEIR ANGER.

>> LET'S DEFINE THE MIDDLE CLASS.

WE DO IT IN THE BOOK SOMEWHAT BY INCOME, SAYING, THIS IS THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT A COLLEGE WILL GIVE YOU FREE TUITION, AND THAT'S, SORT OF, A CUTOFF PARAMETER FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS, RIGHT?

BUT WHAT'S INTERESTING IN THE BOOK IS YOU ALSO USE MARKERS, THE ABILITY TO OWN A HOME, THE ABILITY TO GET A GOOD EDUCATION.

EXPLAIN THE MARKERS TO ME OF WHAT IS A MIDDLE CLASS PERSON.

>> WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT THE MARKERS ARE AND WHEN PEOPLE ARE INTERVIEWED OR SURVEYED ABOUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE MIDDLE CLASS, THEY POINT TO THE ABILITY TO HELP THEIR KIDS GO TO COLLEGE.

THEY POINT TO THE ABILITY TO OWN A HOME.

I WOULD SAY NOW IT'S ALSO JUST THE ABILITY TO FIND AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

A MARKER IS YOU CAN FIND A GOOD FULL-TIME 40 HOURS A WEEK JOB THAT HAS BENEFITS, AND YOU ARE CALLED AN EMPLOYEE AND NOT A CONTRACTOR.

IT'S THE ABILITY TO HAVE SAVINGS SO THAT IF YOU BLOW OUT A TIRE, YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE OUT A PAY DAY LOAN IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO REPLACE THE TIRE SO YOU CAN GO TO WORK.

IT'S THE ABILITY TO HAVE RETIREMENT SAVINGS SO YOU'RE NOT 55 OR 60 YEARS OLD AND THINKING, I MAY HAVE TO WORK UNTIL I DIE BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A PENSION IN THE WAY THAT MY PARENTS HAVE A PENSION.

EVERY MONTH, MY PARENTS GET A SOCIAL SECURITY AND A PENSION.

THEY HAVE FOUR STABLE SOURCES OF INCOME.

AND THEN THE FINAL MARKER IS, SORT OF, THE FLIP OF YOU WANT TO HAVE SAVINGS, YOU DON'T ALWAYS WANT TO BE IN DEBT.

AND IT IS INCREASINGLY HARD FOR YOUNG ADULTS TO BE ABLE TO OBTAIN THE MARKERS OF THE MIDDLE CLASS.

>> WELL, LET'S START WITH THE FIRST OF THE MARKERS YOU TALK ABOUT, WHICH IS HOUSING.

NOW, WHEN I TURNED 30, THAT WAS THE AVERAGE AGE OF PEOPLE GETTING A HOME.

YOU SAY THAT, TOO, IN THE BOOK.

NOW AT 40, MOST PEOPLE DON'T YET HAVE A STABLE HOME.

HOW DO WE FIX THAT?

>> I'LL MENTION A SENATE BILL, A RECENT SENATE BILL THAT PASSED THROUGH THE SENATE.

I HAVEN'T READ IT IN DETAIL BECAUSE WHO KNOWS WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RECONCILE THE SENATE BILL WITH THE HOUSE BILL.

BUT THE FEEL THAT I LOVE ABOUT THAT BILL IS -- WELL, THE MAIN THING IS THEY HAVE ACKNOWLEDGED THAT HOUSING IS UNAFFORDABLE.

THE SECOND THING IS THEY'RE THINKING OUTSIDE THE BOX.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR THE FIRST TIME AT LEAST SINCE I'VE BEEN PAYING ATTENTION -- THIS IS QUITE A FEW YEARS NOW, THEY'RE ACTUALLY SAYING THINGS LIKE MANUFACTURING HOUSING.

NOW, DO I THINK THAT IS THE SOLUTION TO THE HOMEOWNERSHIP CRISIS OR THE AFFORDABILITY CRISIS?

NOT NECESSARILY.

BUT IT MAY BE THE SOLUTION FOR SOME PEOPLE.

SO, THE MAIN THING I'M ARGUING IN THE BOOK AND WHEN I TALK ABOUT, SORT OF, THE MIDDLE CLASS NEW DEAL IS LOOK AT YOUR COMMUNITY.

LOOK AT YOUR ZONING LAWS.

IS THERE SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR ZONING LAWS THAT MAKES IT EITHER HARDER FOR DEVELOPERS TO CONSTRUCT AFFORDABLE HOUSING, OR DOES IT ALLOW PEOPLE WHO ARE EXISTING HOMEOWNERS TO FENCE OUT THE MIDDLE CLASS AND MAKE SURE THEY CAN NEVER LIVE THERE?

SO, I WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO THINK BROADLY AND ALSO TO FOCUS ON YOUR LOCAL COMMUNITIES TO SEE WHAT COULD YOU DO THERE.

>> THE SECOND MARKET YOU TALKED ABOUT WAS JUST A GOOD, SECURE JOB, NOT NECESSARILY THE HIGHEST-PAYING JOB IN THE WORLD, BUT ONE THAT YOU CAN COUNT ON AND MIGHT ACTUALLY GIVE YOU BENEFITS LIKE HEALTH CARE AND PENSION.

WHAT'S GONE WRONG WITH THAT, AND HOW DO WE FIX THAT PART?

>> TWO THINGS WENT WRONG.

THE FIRST WAS -- AND EVERYONE TALKED ABOUT, OH, IT'S GLOBAL OUTSOURCING.

THEY'RE SENDING OUR JOBS OVERSEAS.

AND THAT WAS TRUE.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED, SORT OF, EARLY -- '70s, EARLY 80s.

BUT AN INTERESTING THING WAS HAPPENING DOMESTICALLY THAT NO ONE WAS PAYING ATTENTION TO, AND I CALL IT DOMESTIC OUTSOURCING.

IT'S WHEN COMPANIES TOOK -- PULLED UNITS.

SO, THEY WOULD TAKE THE ACCOUNTING OR THEY WOULD TAKE THE LANDSCAPE, THE FOLKS THAT THEY USED TO EMPLOYEE TO TAKE CARE OF THE PROPERTY IF IT WAS A BIG BUSINESS, AND THEY BASICALLY SAID, WE'RE FIRING ALL OF YOU.

AND THEN THEY GO OUT AND THEY EFFECTIVELY REHIRE THE SAME PEOPLE BUT THROUGH A CONTRACTING AGENCY.

SO, THESE FOLKS WOULD SHOW UP, DO THE SAME WORK THEY ALWAYS DID, BUT THEY WOULD BE PRIVATE CONTRACTORS OR THEY WOULD BE TEMPORARY EMPLOYERS EMPLOYED BY THE CONTRACTING SERVICER.

SO, IF THE BUSINESS DECIDED THEY DIDN'T WANT TO USE THAT COMPANY ANYMORE, YOU LOST YOUR JOB EVEN THOUGH YOU DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG.

>> HOW DO WE STOP -- HOW WOULD ONE STOP THAT?

THAT SEEMS PART OF THE MARKET ECONOMY.

>> IT IS PART OF THE MARKET ECONOMY.

BUT AS ALWAYS, THE EXPRESSION I ALWAYS USE IS, WE CAN TELL WHO WE VALUE BASED ON WHO WE TAX.

YOU CAN MAKE CHANGES BASED ON WHO GETS CERTAIN TAX BENEFITS T. ONE I'LL POINT TO NOW IS WHAT WE'RE SEEING WITH A.I.

SO, WHEN WE HAVE COMMUNITIES OR STATES THAT ARE GIVING CERTAIN COMPANIES BENEFITS AND THOSE COMPANIES ARE EITHER COMING IN AND ELIMINATING JOBS COMPLETELY OR THEY ARE ELIMINATING THOSE JOBS BECAUSE OF A.I., IF THE STATE IS SUBSIDIZING THAT, STOP THE SUBSIDIES.

>> LET ME GO TO EDUCATION.

IF I WERE TO DESIGN A SCHOOL SYSTEMS, YOU KNOW, K-12 SCHOOL SYSTEM, THAT WOULD JUST BE A GUT PUNCH TO TRYING TO CREATE A MIDDLE CLASS, I WOULD SAY, OKAY, LET'S HAVE THE SCHOOL START AFTER PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO GO TO WORK.

LET'S PUT THEIR KIDS ON THE STREET AT 3:00 IN THE AFTERNOON.

AND LET'S GIVE THEM THE ENTIRE SUMMER OFF SO THAT A WORKING CLASS FAMILY IS HITTING IT FROM ALL SIDES AND A WEALTHY FAMILY CAN HAVE ENRICHMENT PROGRAMS IN THE SUMMER, BUT THE MIDDLE CLASS JUST HAS THE KIDS IN THE SUMMER.

TELL ME HOW WE SHOULD BE FIXING EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THE ABSOLUTE DISASTER, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW.

WE'RE STILL PRETENDING AS IF WE'RE AN AGRARIAN ECONOMY WHERE YOU NEED TO HAVE THE KIDS OFF DURING THE WHOLE SUMMER BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT TO WORK THE CROPS.

THEY GO THERE FROM SUNSET.

YOU NEED THEM BEFORE SUNSET TO HELP YOU ON THE FARM, AND IT'S RIDICULOUS.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I ARGUE IS DURING COVID, WE SAW THAT WE CAN BE VERY INNOVATIVE AS A COUNTRY.

WE CAN THINK OUTSIDE OF THE BOX.

WE CAN THINK OF ALL SORTS OF WAYS TO USE SCHOOL BUILDINGS.

WE USE THEM FOR TESTING CENTERS.

WE USE THEM FOR VACCINE DISTRIBUTION.

WE SHOULD LOOK AT OUR SCHOOLS AND SAY, HOW CAN WE USE THOSE BUILDINGS TO MAKE LIFE BETTER FOR MIDDLE INCOME AND POORER CHILDREN, SIMPLE THINGS LIKE, CAN WE USE THE BUILDINGS IN WAYS TO HELP THEM CATCH UP FROM THE SUMMER SLIDE, THE EDUCATIONAL LOSSES THAT ALL CHILDREN HAVE?

AS YOU MENTIONED, RICH KIDS REALLY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY SO MUCH ABOUT THEIR SLIDE BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS ARE GOING TO PUT THEM IN SUMMER CAMPS, ROBOTIC CAMPS, TUTORING, S.A.T.

PREP COURSES.

MIDDLE INCOME AND POOR CHILDREN GENERALLY DON'T DO THAT.

WELL, PUBLIC SCHOOL BUILDINGS, THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO HAVE ELECTRICITY AND TO HAVE WATER.

SO, WHY HAVE SUCH A TRUNCATED SCHOOL DAY IF WE CAN USE THE BUILDINGS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE TO BETTER HELP OUR LOWER AND MIDDLE INCOME CHILDREN HAVE A SHOT AT A MIDDLE CLASS LIFESTYLE?

>> WAS THE COLLEGE FOR ALL MINDSET A BAD IDEA?

>> THE COLLEGE FOR ALL MINDSET I THINK WAS A BAD IDEA ONLY BECAUSE IT WAS FORCED UPON US.

IT WAS FORCED UPON US BY BUSINESSES THAT DECIDED TO USE THE COLLEGE DEGREE, A BACHELOR'S DEGREE, AS THE CUTOFF FOR WILL WE EVEN INTERVIEW THIS PERSON.

SO, THE COLLEGE FOR ALL -- HIGH SCHOOLS BASICALLY STARTED TELLING -- OR STATES STARTED TELLING THEIR HIGH SCHOOLS, YOU'VE GOT TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERY SINGLE KID THAT GRADUATES IS READY TO GO TO COLLEGE.

THERE ARE SOME KIDS THAT EITHER DON'T WANT TO GO TO COLLEGE OR AREN'T NECESSARILY SUITED FOR A FOUR-YEAR PROGRAM.

WE'VE IGNORED THE BENEFITS THAT COMMUNITY COLLEGES HAVE DONE.

COMMUNITY COLLEGES -- AND I'M A HUGE FAN OF COMMUNITY COLLEGES, ALTHOUGH I TEACH AT A FOUR-YEAR -- BECAUSE COMMUNITY COLLEGES CAN PIVOT QUICKLY.

IF A NEW MANUFACTURING COMPANY IS COMING INTO YOUR AREA AND THEY NEED A TRAINED WORKFORCE, A COMMUNITY COLLEGE CAN CREATE A SIX- NINE- MONTH CERTIFICATE.

THEY CAN TAKE PEOPLE THAT ARE THERE, TRAIN THEM, GIVE THEM A CERTIFICATE SO THEY CAN WORK.

I OBVIOUSLY AM A HUGE FAN OF FOUR-YEAR COLLEGES.

I HAVE TAUGHT IT, TOO.

MY CHILDREN WENT TO THEM.

BUT I THINK THE COLLEGE FOR ALL MANTRA WAS USED BY BUSINESSES BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT, THIS IS THE EASIEST WAY FOR US TO ELIMINATE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO HIRE THEM.

WE DON'T NEED TO LOOK AT THEIR RESUMES OR WHATEVER HAPPENS NOW WITH THE ALGORITHMS ONLINE.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A BACHELOR'S DEGREE, YOU'RE OUT.

>> WHEN I FINISHED YOUR BOOK, I REALIZED IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT, YOU KNOW, MIDDLE CLASS HAVING TO STRUGGLE IN AFFORDABILITY, ALTHOUGH THAT WAS HUGE.

IT WAS ABOUT A BIGGER SOCIAL CHANGE.

WHEN YOU SAY THAT THE MEDIAN AGE FOR BUYING A HOME IS NOW 40, THE HIGHEST IT'S EVER BEEN, AND THEN YOU LOOK AT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE AREN'T GETTING MARRIED, PARTLY BECAUSE OF THAT.

THEY'RE NOT HAVING CHILDREN BECAUSE OF THAT.

THERE'S NOT FAMILY FORMATION.

THEY DON'T FEEL THEY HAVE A SECURE JOB AT A SECURE WAGE.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS THIS MORE THAN JUST ABOUT ECONOMICS AND IT JUST ALMOST TEARING APART THE FABRIC OF OUR SOCIETY?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE MIDDLE CLASS HAS ALWAYS MEANT IN THIS COUNTRY, IGNORING THE WAY THAT I DEFINE IT IN TERMS OF INCOME, THE MIDDLE CLASS HAS ALWAYS MEANT NORM.

IT'S ALWAYS MEANT STABLE.

IT'S ALWAYS MEANT SECURE.

AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE A MIDDLE CLASS -- IF YOU ARE A PERSON THAT IS STRUGGLING TO BECOME MIDDLE CLASS OR YOU WAKE UP EVERY MORNING IN FEAR THAT YOU'RE GOING TO TUMBLE OUT OF THE MIDDLE CLASS, WE START GETTING INTO A SPACE OF EMOTIONAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL AND NOT JUST FINANCIAL.

TO IMAGINE THAT WE ARE IN A COUNTRY WHEN YOUNG ADULTS DON'T THINK THEY'RE EVER GOING TO BE ABLE TO MOVE OUT OF THEIR PARENTS' HOME AND LIVE INDEPENDENTLY UNLESS THEY HAVE TWO OR THREE OTHER ROOMMATES.

WHEN YOU HAVE YOUNG ADULTS THAT AREN'T DATING BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK THEY CAN AFFORD TO GET MARRIED AND MANY THAT DO GET MARRIED, THEIR BABIES ARE FUR BABIES AND THEY'RE NOT GRANDBABIES FOR THOSE OF US THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO HAVE GRANDCHILDREN ONE DAY.

THAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT OUR POLITICAL LEADERS REALLY NEED TO BE PAYING ATTENTION TO.

>> MICHELLE DICKERSON, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME ON.

>>> AND FINALLY, DIPLOMACY AROUND THE TABLE BUT NOT THE NEGOTIATING KIND.

THIS WEEKEND, YOUNG TABLE TENNIS PLAYERS FROM THE U.S.

AND CHINA CAME TOGETHER TO MARK THE 55th ANNIVERSARY OF PING PONG DIPLOMACY.

IN 1971, AN AMERICAN TEAM VISITED CHINA, BREAKING THE ICE FOR RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

IT WAS A MILESTONE IN SPORTING AND DIPLOMATIC HISTORY.

THREE OF THOSE ORIGINAL PLAYERS LED THE DELEGATION THIS YEAR.

THE ATTENDEES ALSO HUNG WISH CARDS UNDER THE TREES WITH MESSAGES OF HOPE FOR LASTING FRIENDSHIP, WHICH IS ESPECIALLY IMPORTANT AT A TIME FRAUGHT BY DIVISION AND CONFLICT.

GOOD NOTE TO LEAVE YOU ON THERE.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLEY WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SILVIA A. AND SIMON B. PROGRAM ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE STRAUSS FAMILY FOUNDATION, CHARLES ROSENBLOOM, MONIQUE WARSHAW, KU AND PATRICIA YUAN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

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