HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO".

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE ARE NOT DOING THIS ANYMORE.

>> A DIPLOMATIC STALEMATE, AFTER TEHRAN OFFERED A NEW DEAL TO REOPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND END THE WAR.

MIDDLE EAST EXPERT, GIVES US THE ANALYSIS.

>>> IT IS THE SINGULAR MOST PAINFUL DIFFICULT QUESTION FOR ME TO ANSWER WHICH IS, HOW ARE YOU?

THIS BOOK IS THE ANSWER TO HOW I AM.

>> WHEN WE SEE YOU AGAIN, A MOTHER'S LOVE, GRIEF AND TRAUMA.

I SIT DOWN WITH RACHEL GOLDBERG WHO SON HIRSCH WAS KILLED BY HAMAS AFTER 328 DAYS IN CAPTIVITY.

PLUS -- >> THE FACT THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DYING MORE FREQUENTLY THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS WHEN THEY ARE WEALTHIER, IT MEANS THAT CLASS PRIVILEGE ACTUALLY TYPE OF VULNERABILITY.

>> THE BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH CRISIS IN AMERICA.

AUTHOR KHIARA BRIDGES EXPLAINS ITS IMPACT ON BLACK MOTHERS AND HER NEW BOOK, EXPECTING INEQUITY.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT , JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR TEEN , SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION .

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM , MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE, I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

DONALD TRUMP IS HUDDLING WITH HIS NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM ON IRAN TODAY, AFTER CALLING OFF AT THE LAST MINUTE THE U.S.

NEGOTIATING TEAMS TRIP TO PAKISTAN.

THE PRESIDENT SAID IRAN CAN CALL IF THEY WANT AND ADDED THE WAR COULD COME TO AN END, VERY SOON.

MEANWHILE, IRAN'S TOP DIPLOMAT IS IN RUSSIA MEETING WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN.

IRAN IS FLOATING AN INITIAL DEAL THAT WOULD REQUIRE WASHINGTON TO PERMANENTLY END THE WAR IN EXCHANGE FOR AN OPEN STRAIT OF HORMUZ.

THE NAVIGATION OF THE STRAIGHT AS WE KNOW, WAS NOT AN ISSUE UNTIL THIS WAR BEGAN.

IRAN SAYS A SECOND STEP WOULD BE MORE FOCUSED ON DISCUSSIONS ON HOW TO MANAGE IT AND ITS NUCLEAR PROGRAM FOR NOW THE WHITE HOUSE REITERATES THAT IT THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

DIRECTOR OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA PROGRAM AT CHATHAM , SHE JOINED ME NOW LIVE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

AS WE NOTED, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THIS WEEKENDS TALKS HAD COLLAPSED BECAUSE OF QUOTE, TREMENDOUS INFIGHTING WITHIN IRAN'S LEADERSHIP BUT AS YOU POINT OUT, TEHRAN IS DELIBERATELY AVOIDING A FACE-TO- FACE MEETING TO DENY THE PRESIDENT THE NARRATIVE THAT THEY ARE, QUOTE, DESPERATE TO TALK.

SO, WHAT IS THE MORE ACCURATE READ RIGHT NOW?

>> IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS TRYING TO PRESENT THE IRANIAN SYSTEM AS DIVIDED AND INFIGHTING AND THAT IS WHY HE IS NOT ABLE TO DELIVER THE BIG BEAUTIFUL DEAL WITH THE IRANIANS AFTER 38 DAYS OF WAR OR THE REALITY IS THAT OF COURSE, FACTIONALIZED, THEY HAVE POLITICAL DIFFERENCES, POLICY DIFFERENCES, BUT AT THIS CURRENT JUNCTION THERE'S MUCH MORE UNITY WITHIN THE SYSTEM.

THIS HAS BEEN AN EXISTENTIAL FIGHT FOR THE SURVIVAL OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC AND THE KEY DECISION-MAKERS AT THE TOP, WHETHER IT'S IRAN SPEAKER OF THE PARLIAMENT, WHO MET JD VANCE IN ISLAMABAD BUT ALSO IRAN'S MINISTER OF DEFENSE ALONG WITH MANY OTHERS WHO ARE WORKING TOGETHER THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS OPERATED THROUGH A CONSENSUS AND THAT STILL VERY OPERATIONAL.

THE PROBLEM IS IRAN AND PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE VERY MAXIMALIST DEMANDS, AND THAT'S WHY WE HAVE YET TO SEE THIS BIG DEAL COME TO FRUITION.

>> WE HAVE DUELING TIMELINES AS WELL, PRESIDENT TRUMP CLAIMED THAT IRAN THE BLOCKADED PIPELINES ARE DAYS FROM EXPLODING, MEANTIME IRANIAN STATE MEDIA IS INSISTING THE SO AS THE PRESIDENT IS HUDDLING WITH HIS NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISORS TODAY, WHOSE CLOCK IS ACTUALLY TAKING FASTER RIGHT NOW?

WHAT DO YOU EXPECT THE NEXT MOVE TO BE?

>> WELL, THEY ARE CERTAINLY AN ESTIMATE OR HOLDING GUNS TO EACH OTHER'S HEADS.

THE REALITY IS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOT REALLY RECEIVING ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE THAT HELPS THEM UNDERSTAND THE MINDSET AND THE PAIN THRESHOLD OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC.

FROM THE GET GO, THIS WAR WAS PROSECUTED WITH MISINFORMATION THAT THE REGIME WAS FRAGILE AND GOING TO CRUMBLE MEMBER, THIS WAS GOING TO BE A 4 TO 5 DAY OPERATION AT THE BEGINNING, NOW, HE'S BEING TOLD THAT IRAN'S OIL SUPPLIES OR STOCKPILES ARE GOING TO OVERFLOW THAT'S GOING TO PUSH THEM TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE.

THAT'S WRONG.

THIS IS A SYSTEM THAT IS LOOKING FOR A DEAL THAT ISN'T GOING TO COLLAPSE EMINENTLY, PREPARED FOR A NUMBER OF CONTINGENCIES, SO, THIS IS ACTUALLY A TEST OF WILLS, THIS IS A PSYCHOLOGICAL WAR ALONGSIDE THE ACTUAL MILITARY DYNAMICS THAT WE'VE SEEN PLAY OUT.

>> OUT FLIP THE QUESTION THEN, YOU SAY THE PRESIDENT ISN'T RECEIVING ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE, ARE THE IRANIAN HARDLINERS OR THE IRGC LEADERSHIP FIGURES RECEIVING ACCURATE INTELLIGENCE RIGHT NOW ABOUT THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY AND THEIR OIL SUPPLY?

>> I THINK THEY HAVE CERTAINLY PREPARED FOR CONTINGENCIES.

THEY'VE BEEN DOWN THIS ROAD BEFORE IN 2019, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP ISSUED MAXIMUM PRESSURE AND BROUGHT IRAN'S OIL SALES DOWN TO RECORD LOWS OF YOU KNOW MAXIMUM 200,000 BARRELS A DAY.

IT FACED SIMILAR PROBLEMS AND EVENTUALLY DEVELOPED A SO WE ARE IN THE WORKAROUND MOMENT, WHERE IT'S FINDING OTHER WAYS TO EXPORT, WHETHER OVER LAND, OR THROUGH THE CASPIAN SEA.

IT HAS THESE CONTINGENCIES THAT GIVE IT TIME, ALSO THE ECONOMIC PRESSURE DOESN'T DRIVE DECISION- MAKING ON ITS OWN IN IRAN, THIS IS A COUNTRY THAT HAS BEEN SUFFERING TO SANCTIONS FOR QUITE SOME TIME.

THE COST OF THE WAR IS PRACTICALLY HALF OF IRAN'S GDP AS IT IS.

SO, I THINK THEY ARE FULLY AWARE OF THE CRISIS THEY ARE FACING.

WHAT THE IRANIANS ARE SEEKING IS OBVIOUSLY A PERMANENT END TO THE WAR AND THEY ARE LOOKING FOR SANCTIONS RELIEF SO THEY ARE PLAYING HARDBALL TO GET IT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY ARE INVINCIBLE.

THEY FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE THE UPPER HAND BECAUSE THEY HAVE AUTHORITY OVER THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AS WELL AS STILL HOLDING SOME NUCLEAR CARDS IN THEIR STANDOFF THE PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT THEY COULD OVERPLAY THEIR HAND AND PRESIDENT TRUMP COULD BEGIN TO START PRIORITIZING OTHER ISSUES THAT MATTER TO AMERICANS.

>> YEAH, AS WE NOTED, IRAN IS HARDENING ITS STANCE DEMANDING YOU WITH GUARANTEES UPFRONT AND ENDING ITS BLOCKADE OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND PUSHING NUCLEAR TALKS TO PHASE 2, THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS COMMANDED THAT IRANIANS IN TERMS OF THEIR NEGOTIATING CAPABILITIES, AND HOW WILLING THEY ARE TO DRAG THINGS OUT.

BUT AS AXIOS NOTES, QUOTE, LIFTING THE BLOCKADE AND ENDING THE WAR WOULD MOVE WOULD REMOVE PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LEVERAGE AND CONVINCE TEHRAN TO SUSPEND ENRICHMENT.

TWO PRIMARY WAR OBJECTIVES FOR TRENT.

SO, IS THIS OFFER NOW ON THE TABLE, IN YOUR VIEW, A NONSTARTER FOR TRUMP?

>> I THINK THIS IS A NEGOTIATION THAT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME AND PERHAPS THE OPENING OF THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND THE U.S.

LIFTING OF THE BLOCKADE CAN BE AN INITIAL TEST RUN .

A BIT OF CONFIDENCE BUILDING, IF YOU WILL, THAT WOULD BE GOOD FOR THE REGION, THE GULF STATES THAT HAVE BEEN IMPACTED AND OBVIOUSLY GOOD FOR IRAN AND ALSO FOR THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY THAT IS BEARING THE FINANCIAL COST OF THIS WAR AS PRICES ARE GOING TO CONTINUE TO SOAR OVER THE COMING WEEKS AND MONTHS.

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THIS DEAL WAS LET'S SAY, ACCEPTED IS THAT OF COURSE, PRESIDENT TRUMP WOULDN'T LIFT ALL SANCTIONS RELIEF, THERE WOULD STILL BE LEVERAGE ON THE USI TO FORCE THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT WOULD BE IMPORTANT.

THE U.S.

IS SMART ENOUGH AND WELL VERSED IN NEGOTIATIONS, PRESIDENT TRUMP HIMSELF, TO HOLD SOME CARDS BACK, AND INCENTIVIZE THE IRANIANS, TO THE TABLE FOR THE NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS AS WELL AND IRAN HAS AN INTEREST ACTUALLY, IN SOLVING THIS NUCLEAR STANDOFF WITH THE UNITED STATES, REALLY, BECAUSE THEY BEEN UNDER SANCTIONS FOR WELL OVER FOUR DECADES BUT MOST SEVERELY OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, THEY'VE BEEN EXPERIENCING HUGE UNREST.

I SAW ONE OF THE MOST BRUTAL CRACKDOWNS IN JANUARY FOR THIS SYSTEM IN IRAN TO SURVIVE NOT JUST THE WAR BUT ALSO TRY AND REHABILITATE WITH THEIR PEOPLE TO BUILD BACK THEIR ECONOMY.

THEY DO NEED THAT SANCTIONS RELIEF.

SO THERE'S A GIVE AND TAKE ON BOTH SIDES THAT COULD BE REACHED.

>> FOREIGN MINISTERS VISIT WITH LAMBERT PUTIN, WHAT COULD IRAN POSSIBLY BE HOPING TO GET OUT OF IRAN THAT THEY ARE NOT GETTING FROM ISLAMABAD?

>> I DON'T THINK THIS IS AN EITHER OR, IRAN IS STILL WORKING CLOSE WITH THE PAKISTANIS AS IS PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND THEY REMAIN THE KEYS.

BUT THIS SUGGESTS THAT IRAN IS TRYING TO ENGAGE WITH ITS NEIGHBORS, IT HAS A LONG- STANDING RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN AND PERHAPS THE RUSSIANS WILL PLAY AN IMPORTANT ROLE ON THE NUCLEAR SIDE OF THE NEGOTIATIONS, WHERE RUSSIAN THE PAST HAS OFFERED TO TAKE IRAN'S HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM FOR EXAMPLE AND TRUMP IS LOOKING TO EXTRACT THAT NUCLEAR DUST AS HE CALLS IT, BUT HE WANTS TO GUARANTEE THAT IRAN ISN'T GOING TO USE THE MATERIAL AND WEAPONIZED IT FURTHER.

THE MUSKET SIDE OF THE NEGOTIATION IS THE PATHWAY TO OPEN THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ, WHERE TEHRAN HAS BEEN WORKING WITH THE ALL MONIES TO COME UP WITH AN ARRANGEMENT THAT WOULD RELEASE THE PRESSURE IN THE REGION AND BUILD AGAIN SOME CONFIDENCE ON ALL SIDES BUT IT'S UNCLEAR IF THE STRATEGY WILL RESULT IN ANYTHING MEANINGFUL.

THERE'S A LOT OF CONVERSATIONS GOING ON, LETTERS AND PROPOSALS BEING EXCHANGED YOU KNOW, BEHIND THE SCENES AND WITHOUT THE DIRECT TALKS TAKING PLACE NEVERTHELESS.

>> FINALLY, THE HEZBOLLAH ANGLE OF THIS, WE SAW THE DEADLIEST DAY IN LEBANON SINCE THE TRUTH WAS ANNOUNCED.

HEZBOLLAH IS TREATING TREASON ACCUSATIONS WITH THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT DIRECTLY.

WHAT ROLE, IF ANY, IS IRAN PLAYING IN WHAT IS TRANSPIRING RIGHT NOW IN LEBANON IN THIS FRAGILE CEASE-FIRE, I MEAN, THEY ARE ALREADY BEING BLOWN UP, I MEAN THERE'S FIGHTING GOING ON, SO I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THE CEASE-FIRE CAN BE DESCRIBED AS BEING IN PLACE OR HOLDING.

THE PRESIDENT HASN'T WEIGHED IN YET BUT WHAT ABOUT THAT PARTICULAR ANGLE OF THE STORY ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

>> I MEAN, AS WE SAW IN GAZA, IT'S A CEASE-FIRE IN ALL BUT NAME ONLY.

THIS FOR TAT BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE ISRAELIS AND HEZBOLLAH COULD EASILY CREEP THE AGREEMENT TO EXTEND AND ALLOW DIPLOMACY TO PLAY OUT.

IRAN HAS BEEN A LONG TIME SUPPORTER OF HEZBOLLAH, LOOKING TO PRESERVE AND PROTECT THE GROUP , AND, AS PART OF ITS NEGOTIATION WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE BIGGER PICTURE IS THAT IRAN IS LOOKING TO SOLVE OR AND ALL OF THESE CONFLICTS WHICH WOULD BE VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY FOR THE ISRAELIS, FOR THE U.S., BUT THE REGION MORE BROADLY, OBTAINING AN AGREEMENT FROM IRAN THE CEASE AND DESIST FROM SUPPORTING PROXY GROUPS THAT DESTABILIZE, IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS ANOTHER STANDOFF THAT NEEDS TIME TO PLAY OUT AND THERE'S A LOT OF PRESSURE THERE, OF COURSE, ON ORDINARY PEOPLE.

>> DR.

SANAM VAKIL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR INSIGHTS, WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> TWO FORMER ISRAELI PRIME MINISTERS ARE TRYING TO OUST THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, IN THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION.

THEY SAID THEY WERE COMBINING THEIR PARTIES AND WHAT WOULD BE, QUOTE, A FIRST STEP IN THE PROCESS OF REPAIRING THE STATE OF ISRAEL.

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU'S POLLING IS WEAK AT THE MOMENT, A RECENT SURVEY FROM HEBREW UNIVERSITY FOUND MORE THAN HALF OF ISRAELIS RATED HIS LEADERSHIP AS POOR OR VERY POOR.

THE PRIME MINISTER HAS TOUTED SUCCESS IN GAZA INCLUDING ACHIEVING HIS GOAL OF BRINGING HOME ALL OF THE OCTOBER 7th HOSTAGES.

BUT MANY HOSTAGES, WHO WERE ABDUCTED ALIVE, WERE RETURNED AS REMAINS.

AMONG THEM 23-YEAR-OLD AMERICAN ISRAELI HERSH GOLDBERG PULLEN.

HIS MOTHER, RACHEL, SHARES HER UNIMAGINABLE TRAUMA.

HERSH WAS ABDUCTED INJURED AND HELD CAPTIVE IN THE TUNNELS FOR NEARLY 11 MONTHS, AND ULTIMATELY, KILLED THERE.

HIS MOTHER, LETS US SEE HERSH THROUGH HER EYES AND EXPERIENCE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO GRAPPLE WITH HER AGONY.

GRIEF AND THE STRENGTH THAT SHE DERIVES FROM HERSH'S OWN WORDS.

>> RACHEL GOLDBERG POLIN, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SITTING DOWN WITH ME TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THIS BOOK, WHEN WE SEE YOU AGAIN REALLY SHOULD COME WITH A DISCLAIMER.

IT IS PAINFUL.

IT IS SEARING, YET, IT FINDS A PLACE IN YOUR SOUL AS IT DID MINE AND SO, MY QUESTION IS, HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO COME ABOUT WRITING A BOOK THAT'S NOT A MEMOIR, IS NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HERSH, NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT OCTOBER 7th, IT WEAVES TOGETHER YOUR STORY, YOUR CHILDHOOD, YOUR FAMILY LIFE QUITE FRANKLY PREMONITION AND ALSO INTRODUCES US TO YOUR BEAUTIFUL SON.

>> SO, THE REAL ORIGIN OF THIS, WAS SIMPLY THAT MY SOUL WAS BUCKLING FROM THE WEIGHT OF THE PAIN OF THE LOSS, THAT IS VERY UNIVERSAL.

ALL OF US ARE GOING TO SUFFER LOSS AND SUFFERING AND GRIEF AND MOURNING AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN OUR LIVES.

THIS IS PART OF THE HUMAN ENTERPRISE, WHEN WE COME TO THIS WORLD, THIS STRANGE MYSTERIOUS, MESSY PLACE THAT'S ALSO FULL OF BEAUTIFUL JOY AND BLESSING.

AND THEY ARE GOING TO BE POINTS THAT ARE CHALLENGING FOR ALL OF US.

AND I WAS HAVING A REAL CRISIS OF SHOULDERING THE WEIGHT OF THIS LOSS, OF MY ONLY SON, HERSH, AND AND IT STARTED TO POUR OUT IN THESE PACKAGES OF WORDS, AND I THOUGHT ACTUALLY THIS EFFECTIVE, GIVING OVER OUR WORDS CAN BE IN ALLEVIATING TREMENDOUS SUFFERING AND MY HUSBAND JON SAID , START WRITING IT BECAUSE HE SAW, I WAS ACTUALLY DROWNING.

I WAS DROWNING.

I REALLY FELT VISCERALLY UP TO HERE, THAT IT WAS GOING TO CONSUME ME, AND IT BECAME REALLY, EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, I DON'T THINK THIS IS A MEMOIR, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT A TELL ALL, IT'S NOT A HE SAID THIS AND SHE DID THAT, IT IS I THINK, A LOVE STORY THAT IS SWADDLED IN PAIN PERHAPS A PAIN STORY THAT IS DOUSED IN LOVE, AND IT'S DEFINITELY THE ANSWER THAT SO MANY KIND, WELL-MEANING PEOPLE ASK ME .

IT'S AN INNOCUOUS NORMAL QUESTION, AND IT IS THE SINGULAR MOST PAINFUL, DIFFICULT QUESTION FOR ME TO ANSWER, WHICH IS, HOW ARE YOU.

AND THIS BOOK IS THE ANSWER TO HOW I AM.

>> TO THE QUESTION OF HOW ARE YOU, YOU WRITE ABOUT A WORKAROUND THAT YOU'VE ESTABLISHED WITH THOSE IN YOUR LIFE INCLUDING HER FATHER, AND YOU TALK ABOUT PHONE CALLS WITH YOUR DAD, AND YOUR FATHER CALLS AND SAYS, HOW ARE YOU, HONEY?

LIE TO ME.

AND HOW DO YOU REPLY.

>> I SAY I'M DANNY, HOW ARE YOU AND HE SAYS I'M DANDY AND WE START OUR SHORT CHECK IN CONVERSATION.

BUT THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THE LYING AND ACTING AND FAKING AND PRETENDING THAT SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE TO DO BECAUSE THERE'S AN OBSESSION, AT LEAST IN MOST WESTERN CULTURES OF, KEEP MOVING, PROGRESS, CHANGE, YOU'RE GOING TO GET BETTER, ARE ARE TAKING TWO STEPS FORWARD AND FIVE STEPS BACK BUT YOU ARE STILL TAKING THE STEPS IN ON THE ONE HAND, I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND, I THINK THAT THIS WILY, INTENSE, OBSESSION THAT OTHER PEOPLE HAVE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE IN PAIN, GETTING BETTER, I ACTUALLY THINK THAT IT IS A FORM OF EMOTIONAL BARBARISM OR EMOTIONAL GAS LIGHTING.

AND I'M ACKNOWLEDGING THAT I AM NOT OKAY.

AND I'M OKAY WITH IT NOT BEING OKAY.

AND ACTUALLY, JUST TWO DAYS AGO ANOTHER MOTHER WHO LOST A SON DURING THIS PERIOD, SHE LOST HER SON ON THE MORNING OF OCTOBER 7, 2023.

SHE SAID, WE HAVE TO GET USED TO THE FACT THAT WE WILL NEVER GET USED TO THE FACTS.

WHICH I THOUGHT WAS BRILLIANT AND TRUE.

AND YOU CAN LIVE WITHIN THE, NOT BEING COMFORTABLE WHILE STILL KNOWING THAT THERE ARE MANY BEAUTIFUL THINGS IN OUR LIVES.

AND BLESSINGS IN OUR LIVES, AND HAPPINESS AND LAUGHTER AND THINGS TO LOOK FORWARD TO.

AND YET, WE CAN HOLD BOTH OF THOSE COMPLICATED REALITIES OF THE GOOD AND THE PAIN AT ONCE.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT IN THIS BOOK, RECEIVING THAT TEXT MESSAGE ON OCTOBER 7th AT 8:11 IN THE MORNING THAT FOREVER CHANGED YOUR LIFE AND YOUR WORLD, BECAME THE BEFORE AND AFTER.

AND YOU WRITE, EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENED, EVER AFTER IN YOUR LIFE, FROM YOUR BIRTH ON OCTOBER 12th, 1969, UNTIL THAT MOMENT, WAS OVER WITH TWO TEXTS FROM HERSH, I LOVE YOU, AND I'M AND SUBSEQUENTLY FOR 330 DAYS, THE WORLD SAW YOU AS A PILLAR OF COMPOSURE AND YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK THAT YOU YOURSELF WERE INSTEAD A WOUNDED ANIMAL AND ALLERGIC TO THE QUOTE, HEAVY COSTUME THAT YOU HAVE TO WEAR.

ARE YOU STILL WEARING A COSTUME RIGHT NOW, AND HOW EXHAUSTING WAS THAT, HAVING TO PUT ON THAT INVISIBLE COSTUME FOR THE OUTSIDE WORLD?

>> SO, IT WAS MORE TORTUROUS THAN EXHAUSTING, WEARING THAT COSTUME DURING THOSE 330 DAYS WHEN HERSH WAS STILL ALIVE, AND WE WERE RUNNING, JON AND I WERE RUNNING TO THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, TRYING TO DO EVERY SINGLE THING IMAGINABLE, AS WERE ALL OF THE FAMILIES OF ALL OF THE HOSTAGES.

AND WE WERE ALL WHATEVER WAY FELT AUTHENTIC TO EACH OF US, AND IT WAS SUCH A WIDE, DIVERSE GROUP OF PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, THE ORIGINAL HOSTAGE COHORT WAS COMPRISED OF PEOPLE FROM MORE THAN 30 NATIONALITIES THERE WERE CHRISTIANS, JEWS, HINDUS AND BUDDHISTS AND WE WERE ALL DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND PEOPLE IN CRISIS RESPOND DIFFERENTLY.

AND WE FELT EVERY MORNING, I WOKE UP AND WHAT I REALLY WANTED TO DO WAS LIE ON THE FLOOR IN THE FETAL POSITION MOANING.

I FELT SOMEONE HAD CLEAVED PART OF MY BODY OFF AND WALKED AWAY.

BUT I KNEW THAT WOULDN'T BE PRODUCTIVE IN TRYING TO SAVE HIM AND THEM, SO THAT WAS WHEN THIS REAL ACTING FAKING PRETENDING LINE, YOU KNOW, IN MANY WAYS, I WOULD SAY TO MYSELF, PRETEND TO BE A HUMAN, GET UP, GO.

MY SON, AND IT WAS THE ONLY OPTION.

I THINK THAT NOW, IN THE AFTER AFTER OF HERSH HAVING BEEN EXECUTED IN A TUNNEL, ON DAY 328, WE ONLY KNEW ABOUT IT ON DAY 330, SO FOR ME HE WAS STILL ALIVE FOR THOSE TWO ADDITIONAL DAYS.

I'VE BEEN NOT ALL HERE IN THIS WORLD WHICH MAKES SENSE, A DEAR FRIEND OF MINE WHO'S A VERY RELIGIOUS PERSON SAID, WELL, OBVIOUSLY YOU DON'T FEEL LIKE YOURSELF ANYMORE BECAUSE PART OF YOU IS IN THE WORLD TO COME.

I THINK OF IT AS ALMOST LIKE AFTER THE CHERNOBYL DISASTER THE CHEMICAL COMPOSITION OF THAT AREA CHANGED, THE TREES CHANGED.

THAT'S THE REALITY AND WE CHANGE WHEN WE LOSE SOMEONE WHO IS INTEGRAL TO OUR VERY BEING AND I'M DIFFERENT NOW, I DON'T FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO ACT NOW, BUT WE HAD TO COMPOSE OURSELVES TO HAVE ACCESS TO PEOPLE WHO COULD POSSIBLY HELP.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE POSSIBLY COULD'VE HELPED.

I INTERVIEWED YOU ON DAY 46, YOU AND JON AND I INTERVIEWED YOU ON DAY 103.

AND THAT HAPPENED TO BE IN DAVOS AT THE WORLD ECONOMIC FORUM AND I SENSED AT THE TIME THAT YOU WERE UNCOMFORTABLE BEING THERE.

AND I ASKED YOU WHY YOU WERE THERE.

AND YOU TOLD ME THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING TO IMPORTANT PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU WANTED THEM TO DO SOMETHING AND THEN, THEY TOLD YOU, THEY WANT TO HELP, THEY WANT TO DO SOMETHING AND HE SAID TO ME, WANTING SOMETHING AND DOING SOMETHING ARE TWO VERY UNREAL AND RELATED VERBS.

HAVE YOU GOTTEN CLOSER TO UNDERSTANDING WHY THE PEOPLE WHO COULD'VE DONE SOMETHING DIDN'T DO MORE?

>> IT WASN'T IN THEIR INTEREST, BUT WHAT I HAVE LEARNED AND WHAT WAS VERY CLEAR TO ME THEN AND IS STILL CLEAR TO ME TODAY, IS THAT HERSH WAS A PAWN IN A GAME, I WAS A PAWN IN A GAME, JON WAS A PAWN IN THE GAME AND TO BE HONEST, I ACTUALLY, FROM MY EXPERIENCE, AND THIS IS SIMPLY MY VIEW, I DON'T KNOW IF IT'S ACCURATE, BUT MY IMPRESSION AND ESPECIALLY AFTER SPENDING TIME WITH SO MANY PEOPLE OF POWER AND INFLUENCE IS THAT, ABOUT 99% OF US ARE SHEEP, AND THERE'S A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO DO MOVE THE NEEDLE, WHO DO DECIDE AND I'M NOT KNOCKING US SHEEP, I'M ALSO A SHEEP AND IN FACT, I WISH I COULD GO BACK TO THE SHEEP THAT I HAD BEEN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th BECAUSE I HAD A REALLY NICE PASTOR AND I HAD THESE REALLY GREAT GUARDRAILS AND I WAS VERY SATISFIED.

>> THERE ARE PARTS IN THE BOOK THAT WERE ESPECIALLY PAINFUL AND SEARING TO READ AND THIS WAS ONE OF THEM.

I THINK IT'S SO IMPORTANT.

AND YOU WROTE, I HOPE THE GIRLS GROW UP PLEASE GOD, GET MARRIED AND HAVE CHILDREN AND HERSH, MY SWEET FOREVER BOY, WE DIDN'T WANT HIM TO BE ALONE SO WE BOUGHT THREE GRAVES SO THAT ONE DAY JON AND I WOULD FLANK OUR TREASURED AND BEAUTIFUL ALWAYS BOY.

DOES PROVIDE ENOUGH PROTECTION FOR HIM BRING YOU SOME SORT OF PEACE AND SOLACE?

AND SOLACE, WHICH I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE, IT'S ASPIRATIONAL.

I ASPIRE TO HAVE PEACE, I ASPIRE TO HAVE SOLACE, I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE EITHER.

BUT EVERY DAY, SOMETHING THAT SORT OF SENSORS ME --CENTERS ME FOR AS WELL, I'M SPEAKING TO HERSH THROUGHOUT THE DAY.

THE VERY FIRST WORDS THAT I SAY WHEN I OPEN MY EYES, THERE'S A LINE THAT MANY JEWISH PEOPLE SAY UPON WAKING WHICH IS THINKING OUR IDEA OF GOD FOR GIVING US BACK OUR SOUL AND SAYING, YOU HAVE TREMENDOUS FAITH IN ME WHICH I'VE ALWAYS LOVED, BECAUSE I KIND OF FEEL LIKE WE ARE TAUGHT THE WHOLE DYNAMIC WITH, WHATEVER ANYONE'S IDEA OF GOD IS THAT WE HAVE FAITH IN GOD, YET, THE VERY FIRST THING WE SAY EVERY MORNING IS HOLY COW, YOU HAVE SO MUCH FAITH IN ME AND YOU'VE GIVEN BACK MY SOUL TO ME.

I'M NOT DONE, I'VE GOT WORK TO DO, LET'S GO IN AND I TALKED BED AND THEN, WHEN I START MY MORNING PRAYERS, WHICH I DO AFTER COFFEE -- >> THERE'S A RITUAL.

>> I'M SPEAKING TO HIM THROUGHOUT MY PRAYERS, AND I THINK THAT KNOWING IN MY BELIEF THAT HIS SOUL IS STILL HERE.

A SOUL INDOORS.

SO IT'S CONFUSING BECAUSE I HAVE TO LEARN A NEW WAY OF GREETING AND EXPERIENCING HERSH , NOW THAT I CAN'T USE MY FIVE SENSES WHICH IS HOW I USED TO COMMUNICATE AND EXPERIENCE HIM .

BUT THAT GIVES ME COMFORT.

AND I VERY MUCH DECLARE IT BEFORE MY MORNING PRAYERS, THERE'S AN INTRODUCTORY PRAYER, AND I SAY IT FIRST IN HEBREW AND THEN I SAY IT IN ENGLISH, I SAY IT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HERSH'S SOUL, THAT HIS SOUL IS HERE.

I AM SO GRATEFUL THAT THAT GORGEOUS SOUL EXIST.

>> I TOLD A MUTUAL FRIEND THAT YOU HAVE THAT YOU POSSESS A RARE GIFT, AND THAT IS, YOU NEVER WASTE A SINGLE WORD.

EVERY WORD OUT OF YOUR MOUTH HAS A PURPOSE.

>> YOU SHOULD TELL JON THAT.

>> MARK MY WORDS, I HAVE TO READ IT BECAUSE I DIDN'T WANT TO SCREW UP IN SAYING THAT.

AND IT'S HIGHLIGHTED BY HOW YOU NAMED IT WITH CHAPTER STARTING WITH THE BEGINNING, SCREAMING INTO GAZA, THE END, DAY 330, BURYING MYSELF, SHIVER, AND FINALLY, MEETING LIGHT.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT LIGHT AND THE RELEASED HOSTAGE THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING FOR YOU.

HE TOLD YOU THAT IT WAS HERSH WHO KEPT REPEATING THAT QUOTE.

>> HE SAID TO ME IN HEBREW, LET ME JUST TRANSLATE IT, HE WHO HAS A Y CAN BEAR ANYHOW.

>> AND HE ALSO TOLD YOU SOMETHING ELSE.

HE SAID HERSH WAS NOT BROKEN AND THAT HE HEARD YOUR WORDS.

HE HURT YOU, IN AN INTERVIEW SAY THAT YOU HAD MET WITH THE SECRETARY OF STATE, IT WAS CLEAR TO HERSH THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING AND DOING EVERYTHING YOU COULD TO BRING HIM HOME.

AND THAT BRINGS ME BACK TO WHAT YOU ALSO TOLD ME IN DAVOS AND HE SAID THE WORLD FAILED ON THE HOSTAGES.

YOU HAVE FAILED THE HOSTAGES, YOU SAID THAT YOU YOURSELF FAILED.

HAVING HEARD THAT FROM OREN AND HERSH KNEW THAT YOU WERE MOVING HEAVEN AND EARTH TO DO EVERYTHING THAT YOU COULD, ARE YOU STILL BLAMING YOURSELF?

>> I DID STILL FAIL HIM.

WHEN I SAY WE FAILED HIM, YOU KNOW THAT THE WORLD FAILED HIM, I AM PART OF THE WORLD.

I THINK I EVEN TRIED MORE THAN 100%, AND SOMETIMES 100% IS ENOUGH BUT HAVING OREN LEVY SHARE THAT WITH US ON THE EVENING OF 496, SO FOR ALMOST 500 DAYS WE KNEW ALMOST NOTHING ABOUT HERSH, AND HE HAD ALREADY AT THAT POINT, WE HAD BURIED HIM , YOU KNOW, MORE THAN 150 DAYS BEFORE WE MET OREN LEVY, AND THEN HE GIVES ME THIS MAGNIFICENT PACKAGE OF HEARING THAT HE MADE IT CLEAR, HE SAID IT WASN'T A NEWS PIECE ABOUT YOU, IT WAS ACTUALLY YOUR VOICE IN AN INTERVIEW EXPLAINING WHO YOU WERE MEETING WITH AND WHAT YOU AND JON WERE TRYING TO DO.

IN ENGLISH, AND HE HEARD YOU.

AND THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, THAT WAS PERMISSIVE FOR ME TO BREATHE DIFFERENTLY.

AND I WILL BRIEF DIFFERENTLY CONVERSATION THAT WE HAD WITH HIM, FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

THERE'S NO DOUBT.

>> ONE OF THE MILLION WAYS YOU CAPTIVATED THE WORLD IS THROUGH YOUR STRENGTH AND EMPATHY, AND EMPATHY FOR THOSE WHO HAVE SUFFERED LOSS AND MOTHERS LIKE YOU, IN ISRAEL AND IN GAZA.

WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT PEOPLE REALLY TOOK TO THAT NOTION, THAT YOU COME AT A TIME WHEN YOU COULD HAVE JUST BEEN FOCUSING ON THE HEART ACHE YOUR FAMILY WAS FEELING, WERE ALSO THINKING ABOUT OTHER MOTHERS WHO WERE BURYING THEIR OWN CHILDREN?

>> TO ME, IT WAS VERY OBVIOUS THAT THE PEOPLE WHO SUFFERED THE MOST, WHEN THERE ARE THESE HORRIBLE CONFLICTS, WHETHER IT'S IN WORLD HISTORY OR IN CURRENT HISTORY IN THE WORLD, CURRENT EVENTS IN THE WORLD, ARE THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO ARE CAUGHT IN THE CROSSHAIRS.

AND THOSE OF US, WHO HAVE EXPERIENCED THAT , I THINK IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT COLOR, WHAT TEXTURE, WHAT CLOTHES EMMA WHAT WORLDVIEW, WHAT PHILOSOPHY YOU HAVE, WE ARE ALL SUFFERING LOSS, AND WE CAN HOLD TWO TROOPS, WE CAN ACTUALLY REALLY JUGGLE MORE THAN TWO, I'M A TERRIBLE JAGUAR AND BAD AT MULTITASKING BUT, I WAS ABLE TO SAY, AND YOU HEARD ME SAY TO YOU, AT THE TIME, I'M TERRIBLY WORRIED AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN GAZA.

AND I'M TERRIBLY WORRIED AND CONCERNED ABOUT THE INNOCENT CIVILIANS IN GAZA WHO WERE TRACKED THERE ON OCTOBER 7th.

I DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE A SIDE, AND I DON'T HAVE TO CHOOSE A TEAM, I'M WORRIED ABOUT MY SON AND AMAURY ABOUT HER SON.

AND THERE WAS A JOURNALIST WHO, IN THE BEGINNING, WROTE, THAT IF YOU ONLY CRY WHEN ONE SIDE'S BABIES DIE, IT MEANS YOUR MORAL COMPASS IS BROKEN, THEREFORE, YOUR HUMANITY IS BROKEN.

AND JON AND I HAVE FELT RELIEF THAT WE KNOW THAT EVEN WITH THIS HERCULEAN COLOSSAL CHALLENGE AND LOSS THAT WE HAVE BEEN DEALT, THAT OUR MORAL COMPASSES ARE STILL CALIBRATED.

AND THAT, GIVES ME HOPE.

>> LET'S AND ON YOUR DELICIOUS COOKIE, 23 YEARS PLUS HOW MANY DAYS?

>> 334 DAYS THAT YOU HAD WITH HERSH, YOU WRITE ABOUT YOUR UNABASHED ADORATION FOR HIM.

YOU WRITE I COULD ONLY SEE ADONIS BEFORE ME, NOT JUST PHYSICALLY, EVERYTHING HE SAID KEPT ME WRAPPED.

I HEARD WHAT EVER HE TOLD ME AND TOOK IT AS A BASELESS AND IRRATIONAL PERFECTION.

I WAS NOT IMPARTIAL AND THANK GOD HE KNEW IT.

BAD PARENTING, MAYBE, BUT NOW I AM ENDLESSLY GLAD I WAS SO SUBJECTIVE.

I THINK IT HELPED HIM WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO SURVIVE.

I SEALED HIM IN MOTHER LOVE, MY PROTECTIVE ARMOR.

YOU SEALED HIM IN THE ARMOR THAT HELPED HIM SURVIVE IN ALL THOSE DAYS AND NOW YOU ARE THE ONE THAT HAS TO SURVIVE.

DOES HIS MEMORY SERVE AS YOUR PROTECTIVE ARMOR NOW?

>> I THINK THAT IN SOME WAYS IT DOES, AND I THINK WHAT ELSE REALLY HELPS ME IS THAT MANTRA, THAT HE WAS SAYING TO OREN LEVY, TO ELLIE, OTHER PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE TUNNELS WITH HIM WHO DID COME HOME.

THE IDEA THAT WHEN THERE IS A Y, YOU CAN MANAGE ANYHOW.

THE HOW IS THAT JON AND I HAVE BEEN HANDED IS, HOW DO WE MAKE IT THROUGH THE REST OF OUR LIVES IN A WORLD WITHOUT HERSH ?

AND I KNOW FROM THAT MANTRA, THERE IS A PURPOSE FOR ME, STILL BEING HERE, IN THIS WORLD, WHERE WE ARE NOT WHAT WE SAY AND WE ARE NOT WHAT WE THINK OR EVEN WHAT WE BELIEVE, WE ARE, WHAT WE DO.

AND THAT'S IT.

SO ALL OF US HAVE TO DO, AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE FEELING MOTIVATED FROM HERSH'S MANTRA TO CHASE AND MAKE HAPPEN.

>> ARE YOU DREAMING YET?

>> I WISH.

I STILL SAY, COME HAUNT ME, COME VISIT ME IN MY DREAMS.

>> I WISH YOU DREAMS VERY SOON.

RACHEL, THANK YOU FOR SITTING DOWN WITH US, THANKS FOR SHARING HERSH WITH US, THANK YOU FOR LETTING US LOVE YOUR SON.

HE WAS A STRANGER BEFORE WE MET YOU.

THIS IS A BOOK EVERYONE SHOULD READ .

IT'S PAINFUL, BUT IT'S SO IMPORTANT.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> NOW, TO A SHOCKING ISSUE AFFECTING BLACK WOMEN ACROSS AMERICA.

NEW RESEARCH REVEALS THAT AFRICAN AMERICAN WOMEN DISPROPORTIONATELY FACE SERIOUS CHALLENGES DURING PREGNANCY AND CHILDBIRTH, REGARDLESS OF THEIR SOCIOECONOMIC BACKGROUND.

AUTHOR AND PROFESSOR KHIARA BRIDGES JOINS MICHELLE MARTIN TO DISCUSS HER NEW BOOK, EXPECTING INEQUITY AND HOW PERSISTENT RACISM HAS CREATED A MATERNAL HEALTH CRISIS.

>> THANKS, PROFESSOR BRIDGES THANKS FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SO BY NOW MANY PEOPLE KNOW THAT BLACK AMERICANS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE THREE TIMES MORE LIKELY THAN WHITE AMERICANS TO DIE FROM PREGNANCY -RELATED CAUSES, OKAY.

BUT WHAT IS SO STRIKING ABOUT YOUR LATEST RESEARCH AND YOUR LATEST BOOK, IT'S NOT JUST THAT THIS GAP DOES NOT CLOSE WITH INCOME OR EDUCATION, AND .

I THINK THAT IS JUST THE KIND OF THING THAT JUST MAKES PEOPLE'S HEAD SPIN.

SO THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK IS, WHEN YOU DUG IN ON THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE, WERE YOU SURPRISED?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE STATISTIC THAT YOU JUST MENTIONED IS THE ENGINE BEHIND THIS BOOK.

IT WAS DISCOVERING THAT STATISTIC THAT ACTUALLY ENCOURAGED ME AND PROVOKED ME TO ENGAGE IN TWO YEARS OF RESEARCH THAT CULMINATED IN EXPECTING AN EQUITY.

IT'S NOT ONLY TRUE FOR MATERNAL DEATH BUT ALSO INFANT DEATHS, THE BABIES THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE, WHEN THEY ARE AT THE HIGHER END OF THE SOCIOECONOMIC LADDER, THEY MORE FREQUENTLY DIE, THEN THE BABIES THAT POOR BLACK PEOPLE HAVE, SO, THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE, AND I THINK THERE'S A COMMON MISCONCEPTION IN THE UNITED STATES THAT HAVING SOME DEGREE OF CLASS PRIVILEGE, HAVING HIGH INCOME, WEALTH, HAVING A HIGH STATUS JOB, THAT THAT PROTECTS YOU FROM RACIAL DISADVANTAGE, THAT PROTECTS YOU FROM RACISM, AND IT'S TRUE IN A LOT OF RESPECTS, CLASS PRIVILEGE IS PROTECTIVE, HOWEVER, THE FACT THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE DYING MORE FREQUENTLY THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS, WHEN THEY ARE WEALTHIER, IT MEANS THAT CLASS PRIVILEGE ACTUALLY OPENS US UP TO A PARTICULAR TYPE OF VULNERABILITY.

THERE'S A PARTICULAR TYPE OF MARGINALIZATION THAT HAPPENS WHEN ONE HAS WEALTH AND STATUS AND INCOME, SO, THAT IS THE ENGINE BEHIND THIS BOOK AND I SOUGHT TO INTERROGATE THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE AS WELL AS DISCOVER WHAT BLACK PEOPLE WERE DOING IN LIGHT OF THAT REALLY UNIQUE AND UNEXPECTED MARGINALIZATION.

>> YOU WRITE THE HIGHER RATES OF BLACK MATERNAL DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE NOT BECAUSE BLACK PEOPLE THIS PROPORTIONALLY BEAR THE BURDENS OF PROPERTY, BLACK PEOPLE HAVE HIGHER RATES OF MATERNAL DEATHS THAN WHITE PEOPLE ACROSS ALL INCOME LEVELS, RACIAL DISPARITIES AND MATERNAL MORTALITY ARE NOT A PROBLEM OF CLASS, THEY ARE A PROBLEM OF RACE, OF RACISM, TO BE PRECISE.

BUT IF IT'S NOT POVERTY, IF IT'S NOT THAT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING TO BLACK PEOPLE, BLACK PATIENTS, EVEN IN WELL RESOURCED SETTINGS ARE LEADING TO THE OUTCOMES.

>> SOME OF THE FACTORS THAT ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE HIGHER RATES OF DEATH AND SEVERE INJURIES AMONG PREGNANT FOLKS, EVEN AT THE HIGHER ENDS OF THE SOCIOECONOMIC LADDER, IT'S MANY DIFFERENT CONTRIBUTORS.

BEING A PERSON OF COLOR UNITED STATES, BEING A BLACK PERSON IN THE UNITED STATES, IT'S STRESSFUL AND THERE'S REAMS OF RESEARCH AT THIS POINT, THAT DEMONSTRATES, IT'S CALLED WEATHERING, THERE WAS A PUBLIC HEALTH RESEARCHER THAT HAS DEVOID --DEVOTED HER LIFE JUST HOW CHRONIC STRESS WEATHERS PEOPLE'S BODIES.

I ALSO TALK ABOUT EPIGENETICS, THAT IS A TOUCHY SUBJECT TO TALK ABOUT BECAUSE IT'S SO EASILY MISUNDERSTOOD AS GENETICS .

NO ONE IS MAKING THE ARGUMENT THAT BLACK PEOPLE HAVE SOME RACE SPECIFIC GENETIC VARIATION THAT CAUSES US TO DIE MORE FREQUENTLY THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS INSTEAD IT REFERS TO THE EXPRESSION OF THE GENES.

IN THE GENES ARE EXPRESSED IN PARTICULAR WAYS ACCORDING TO THEIR ENVIRONMENT.

SO, IF YOU LIVE IN A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT, YOUR GENES WILL BE EXPRESSED IN A WAY THAT IS INCONSISTENT OR CONTRARY TO LIFE AND HEALTH.

AND I TOLD THE STORY IN THE BOOK, MY MOTHER, MY MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER WAS A MADE IN THE JIM CROW SOUTH, SHE CLEANED WHITE PEOPLE'S HOUSES HER ENTIRE LIFE.

SHE DIED PREMATURELY, AND I THINK IT WOULD BE FANTASTICAL TO BELIEVE THAT HER JEANS WERE NOT EXPRESSED IN A WAY THAT LED TO HER PREMATURE DEATH MOREOVER, SHE PASSED THAT GENETIC EXPRESSION DOWN TO A MOTHER, I LIKELY INHERITED THAT FROM MY MOTHER SO EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ALL THIS PRIVILEGE AND ALL THIS YOU KNOW, ELITE STATUS, I'M JUST TWO GENERATIONS OUT OF JIM CROW.

SO IT WOULD BE SURPRISING IF I HAVE NOT INHERITED THOSE EXPRESSION OF THE GENES THAT WOULD COMPROMISE MY HEALTH AND THAT MIGHT LEAD TO THE PREGNANCY COMPLICATIONS PERIOD ONE OF THE DATA POINTS YOU CITED IS THAT AFRICAN IMMIGRANTS WHO COME FROM MAJORITY BLACK COUNTRIES WITHIN A GENERATION OR TWO, THEIR BIRTH OUTCOMES DETERIORATE WHEREAS WHITE IMMIGRANTS WHO COME FROM LESS AFFLUENT OR RESOURCED COUNTRIES, THERE BIRTH OUTCOMES IMPROVE.

THAT IS AN INTERESTING POINT.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE OTHER FACTORS?

>> WELL, THERE'S ALSO SEGREGATION, GOOD OLD-FASHIONED HEALTHCARE SEGREGATION, AND THE FACT THAT THERE ARE SOME HOSPITALS THAT CARE FOR MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR THAN OTHER HOSPITALS WHICH PREDOMINATELY CARE FOR WHITE PEOPLE AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE YOU HAVE STATUS, YOU HAVE SOME WEALTH, AS A BLACK PERSON YOU CAN MOVE INTO A MORE AFFLUENT NEIGHBORHOOD BUT STUDIES OVER THE GENERATIONS HAVE DEMONSTRATED IT'S REALLY HARD FOR BLACK PEOPLE TO LIVE IN INTEGRATED NEIGHBORHOODS BECAUSE WHEN A CRITICAL MASS OF BLACK PEOPLE MOVE INTO THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS, WE EXPERIENCE WHITE FLIGHT AND THE WHITE FAMILIES LEAVE AND THE RESOURCES LEAVE, THE VALUES DECREASE, AND THEN WE ARE DEALING WITH UNDER RESOURCED COMMUNITIES RELATIVE TO THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS.

SO THE HOSPITALS AND HEALTHCARE SYSTEMS THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE RELYING ON FOR THEIR HEALTHCARE, JUST TEND NOT TO BE AS WELL RESOURCED AS THE HOSPITALS AND HEALTH SYSTEMS THAT THEIR CAN GO TO IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD.

>> WHAT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE EXAM ROOM.

YOU SAY THERE ARE SYSTEM ISSUES BUT ALSO THESE INDIVIDUAL INTERACTIONS.

I THINK IT'S STANDARD OR AT LEAST IT WAS UNTIL THE CURRENT ERA, TO HAVE IMPLICIT BIAS TRAINING, DOES YOUR RESEARCH INDICATE THAT THERE ARE STILL ONE-ON-ONE PATIENTS AND IT CONTRIBUTES TO MORE NEGATIVE OUTCOMES WITH BLACK PATIENTS.

>> I DON'T DENY THAT IMPLICIT BIAS IS A FACTOR TOWARDS THE INFERIOR HEALTHCARE THAT BLACK PEOPLE RECEIVED FROM THEIR PROVIDERS.

MY PROBLEM WITH IMPLICIT BIAS AS AN EXPLANATION IS THAT IT HAS BEEN A TOTAL EXPLANATION OF ALL MATTER OF RACIAL INEQUITIES AND RACIAL DISPARITIES.

AND THAT'S WHAT MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND NURSING SCHOOLS HAVE BEEN DOING.

THEY'VE BEEN TRYING TO FIX THE PROBLEM OF RACIAL DISPARITIES IN HEALTH AND MATERNAL MORTALITY AND MORBIDITY BY HAVE THESE IMPLICIT BIASES AGAINST THEIR BLACK PATIENTS.

AGAIN, INCREDIBLY LAUDABLE BUT THERE'S SO MUCH MORE THAT WE CAN DO ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE A PERSON LIKE ME AND YOU BELIEVE THAT STRUCTURAL CONTRIBUTORS ARE WHAT ARE DOING THE HEAVY LIFTING WHEN IT COMES TO KILLING BLACK PEOPLE AND SHORTENING THEIR LIVES AND MAKING THEM SICK THEN IMPLICIT BIAS SEEMS LIKE AN EASY FIX.

IT SEEMS LIKE SOMETHING WHERE YOU CAN MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO WHILE PROFESSING TO ACTUALLY BE DOING SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

>> TELL US ABOUT ANNETTE AND HER EXPERIENCE.

WHAT DOES ANNETTE'S STORY TELL US ABOUT THE LIMITS OF CLASS PRIVILEGE .

>> ABSOLUTELY, AND THAT, I BEGIN THE BOOK WITH HER, SHE EARNED HER LAW DEGREE FROM AN ELITE LAW SCHOOL, SHE THE CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY, SHE'S MARRIED, SHE WAS PREGNANT WITH HER FIRST CHILD, SHE WAS HEALTHY AND SHE STARTED TO EXPERIENCE HEARTBEAT TOWARDS THE TAIL END OF HER SECOND TRIMESTER AND SHE WOULD GO TO THE EMERGENCY ROOM WHENEVER THIS HAPPENED IN THE PROVIDERS THERE WOULD TELL HER, NOTHING'S WRONG, IT'S JUST STRESS, YOU KNOW, YOU ARE JUST STRESSED OUT, TRY TO RELAX.

SHE WILL REPORT THE SYMPTOMS TO HER MIDWIVES DURING HER FOLLOW- UP VISITS AND THEY WOULD TELL HER THE SAME THING, JUST RELAX, YOUR BODY DOES WEIRD THINGS WHEN YOU ARE PREGNANT.

JUST TRY TO RELAX, ALSO DURING THE PRESIDENT --PREGNANCY SHE WOULD EXPERIENCE THINGS LIKE ON A SCALE OF 1 TO 10, HOW MUCH PAIN ARE YOU IN, SHE WOULD SAY IT'S A 25, IT'S A 50, SHE WOULD BECOME INCONTINENT, VOMIT, DELIRIUM INDUCING PAIN IN FACT THEY TOLD HER THAT YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULD PROBABLY GET A BETTER BRA THAT SUPPORTS YOUR BREATH BECAUSE IT'S BACK PAIN.

SO, LONG STORY SHORT, IT TURNS OUT THAT HER RAPID HEARTBEAT WAS CAUSED FROM A PREGNANCY INDUCED HEART CONDITION THAT COULD HAVE BEEN LETHAL.

THEY FINALLY DIAGNOSED IT WHEN SHE WAS IN LABOR BECAUSE SHE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL, THEY DID AN EKG ON HER AND DISCOVERED THE HEART CONDITION.

THE DELIRIUM INDUCING PAIN WAS ACTUALLY CAUSED FROM PANCREATITIS, THEY COULD HAVE DISCOVERED THE PANCREATITIS BY A SIMPLE BLOOD TEST AND IT WOULD HAVE REVEALED THAT SHE HAD ELEVATED LEVELS OF ENZYMES.

NOBODY BOTHERED TO DO A WORKUP OF HER TO DISCOVER THE SOURCE OF THE SYMPTOMS IN FACT SHE MIGHT HAVE DIED FROM THE PANCREATITIS.

SHE ENDED UP HAVING EMERGENCY SURGERY TO REMOVE HER PANCREAS.

SO, THIS IS A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF MEDICAL NEGLECT.

IT'S A CLEAR EXAMPLE OF NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO PATIENTS, WHEN THEY REPORT THEIR SYMPTOMS AND IT DID NOT MATTER AT ALL THAT SHE HAD A JD FROM ONE OF THE TOP LAW SCHOOLS IN THE UNITED STATES, IT DIDN'T MATTER THAT SHE WAS MARRIED, THAT HER HUSBAND WAS THERE WITH HER, DIDN'T MATTER, SHE WAS WELL MATTERED.

THEY DID NOT ENCOURAGE HER DOCTORS TO ACTUALLY GIVE HER THE QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE THAT SHE DESERVED.

>> YOU POINT OUT THAT THE U.S.

IS ONE OF ONLY A SMALL NUMBER OF COUNTRIES WHERE MATERNAL MORTALITY IS ACTUALLY INCREASING.

AND THE ONLY INDUSTRIALIZED NATION AMONG THAT SMALL GROUP OF COUNTRIES, SO WHAT IF YOU HAD BLACK PRACTITIONERS, THOUGH, DOES THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THESE OUTCOMES?

>> SO, I TALK ABOUT IT IN THE BOOK, ABOUT RACIALLY AND COORDINATED CARE AND THEIR STUDIES THAT SHOW THAT BLACK PATIENTS HAVE BETTER OUTCOMES WHEN THEY ARE CARED FOR BY BLACK PROVIDERS, IN SOME CONTEXT, INFANT MORTALITY IS ONE OF THOSE CONTEXT, WE HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE WHETHER MATERNAL MORTALITY AND MORBIDITY, THERE'S DATA COMING OUT TO DEMONSTRATE THAT BUT BLACK PROVIDERS CAN IMPROVE THE OUTCOMES OF THEIR BLACK PATIENTS.

AND PATIENTS I TALKED TO SOUGHT CARE FROM A BLACK PROVIDER BUT IT'S IMPORTANT UNDERSTAND THAT THEY KNEW THERE WERE NO GUARANTEES, THEY KNEW THAT THESE BLACK PROVIDERS WERE NOT LIKE UNICORNS OR MAGICAL CREATURES INSTEAD, THEY WERE JUST PLAYING IN STATISTICS AND LIKELIHOOD, THEIR SENSE WAS THAT THEY WERE MORE LIKELY TO AVOID THAT IMPLICIT BIASES IF THEY ARE BEING CARED FOR BY A BLACK PROVIDER, MORE LIKELY TO HAVE A BLACK PROVIDER WHO WOULD LISTEN TO THEM IF THEY WERE CARED FOR BY A BLACK PROVIDER, SO THESE WERE THE CHANCES THAT MANY BLACK PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO TAKE.

>> YOU COMPARED CARE AND PUBLIC HOSPITALS AND ELITE PRIVATE SETTINGS.

AND YOU FOUND THAT IN FACT, EVEN THOUGH THE KIND OF ACTUAL LOGISTICS OF GETTING CARE FROM ONE OF THESE BUSY PUBLIC HOSPITALS COULD BE REALLY TRAINING, COULD BE CHAOTIC, COULD FEEL DEMEANING.

YOU STILL FOUND SOME OF THE OUTCOMES WERE ACTUALLY BETTER.

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY, SO, I THINK THAT WE BELIEVE THAT WELL RESOURCED SETTINGS, THE PREDOMINATELY WHITE SETTINGS WILL IMPROVE OUR OUTCOMES AS PEOPLE OF COLOR, YOU KNOW, WHITE FOLKS BELIEVE THAT AS WELL, BUT THERE ARE SOME DATA CHALLENGING THAT.

IT MIGHT SEEM LIKE THE HOSPITAL WITH ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES THAT HAS THE GREEN TEA STATION AND THAT HAS THE, IT SMELLS LIKE LEMONGRASS AND LAVENDER WHEN HE WALKED INTO THE WAITING ROOM, IT MAY SEEM LIKE THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE YOU WILL GET THE BEST QUALITY HEALTHCARE BUT MEANWHILE, THE HOSPITAL DOWN THE STREET THAT CARES FOR LOW INCOME PEOPLE, THAT CARES FOR MARGINALIZED PEOPLE WHOSE VERY REASON FOR EXISTENCE IS TO CARE FOR THE REGIONS MARGINALIZED, THAT SPACE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE BETTER FOR YOU BECAUSE IT'S ENTIRE ORIENTATION IS ANTIRACIST, THE ENTIRE ORIENTATION IS TO BE CONSCIOUS OF RACIAL DISADVANTAGE AS WELL AS ALL OF THE OTHER DISADVANTAGES.

THESE ARE HIGHLY REGULATED SPACES, SPACES WHERE PROVIDERS DON'T HAVE THE DISCRETION TO NOT RUN A SCAN BECAUSE OF THE MEDICAID APPARATUS BECAUSE MEDICAID SAYS YOU HAVE TO DO X, Y, AND Z IN ORDER TO RECEIVE MEDICAID REIMBURSEMENT.

SO THE HIGHLY REGULATED ASPECTS OF THE CARE THAT YOU MIGHT RECEIVE AT THE UNDER RESOURCED PLACE AS WELL AS THE FACT THAT THESE PLACES EXIST TO CARE FOR THE MOST MARGINALIZED, IT MIGHT MEAN THAT YOU ARE BETTER OFF, AS A BLACK PERSON GOING TO THESE INSTITUTIONS THAT MANY OTHERS AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE.

>> BEFORE WE LET YOU GO, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A VIRAL MOMENT IN WASHINGTON RECENTLY WHICH REPRESENTATIVES SOME REALLY A BLACK DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN CONFRONTED HEALTH SECRETARY ROBERT F KENNEDY JR.

OVER THE DEI CUTS AMONG OTHERS, SHE ARGUED THE CUTS INTERFERED WITH IMPORTANT RESEARCH INTO LOWERING MORTALITY RATES FOR BLACK WOMEN AND ASKED, HOW CAN MATERNAL MORALITY, IF WE CAN'T -- CERTAIN INSTITUTIONS DISRUPTED, CANCELED, TERMINATED, ET CETERA, FOR A VARIETY OF REASONS.

WHAT IS AN AVENUE TO ADDRESS THESE ISSUES THAT YOU RAISE, I THINK THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS THE PRIMARY FUNDER OF BASIC RESEARCH, WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO?

>> RIGHT, I KNOW, I WROTE THE LAST CHAPTER IN THE BOOK IS THE SOLUTIONS CHAPTER.

I WAS WRITING IT IN JANUARY 2025, RIGHT WHEN TRUMP ASSUMES OFFICE FOR THE SECOND TIME, RIGHT WHEN IT BECAME JUST OBVIOUS THAT HE WAS MORE ORGANIZED THAN HE WAS THE FIRST TIME AROUND, THAT THESE CAMPAIGN PROMISES ABOUT ATTACKING EVERYTHING THAT IS IMPORTANT TO ME, THEY WEREN'T JUST CAMPAIGN PROMISES, INSTEAD, THEY WERE GOING TO BE A PROGRAM OF ACTION FOR THE NEXT FOUR YEARS.

SO, WHAT CAN WE DO IN LIGHT OF THE FACT THAT WE CAN'T EVEN SAY RACE, CERTAINLY CAN'T SAY BLACK, WE CAN COUNT THE NEEDLESS DEATHS THAT ARE GOING TO HAPPEN, WE CAN COUNT THE PREVENTABLE DEATHS THAT WILL INEVITABLY OCCUR THROUGH OUR STEADY DETERMINATION, NOT TO PAY ATTENTION TO RACE, AND WE CAN LEARN, WE CAN LEARN FROM WHAT HAPPENS WHEN AN ADMINISTRATION, WHEN A GOVERNMENT AS POWERFUL AS THE UNITED STATES IS, IS -BENT ON IGNORING WHAT IS UNDENIABLY TRUE THAT RACISM PERSISTS AND THAT'S KILLING US.

WE CAN LEARN IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS, AND WE CAN DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE, AND THAT MEANS MAKING SURE THAT BLACK PATIENTS CAN BE CARED FOR BY BLACK PROVIDERS AND WHAT THAT'S GOING TO MEAN IS WE NEED TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF BLACK PEOPLE IN MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND NURSING SCHOOLS AND MIDWIFERY SCHOOLS AND NEED TO START FUNDING DOULAS, WE NEED TO TACKLE RESIDENTIAL SEGREGATION, WE NEED TO GET RID OF HEALTHCARE SEGREGATION WHERE THERE SOME HOSPITALS THAT WE KNOW PROVIDE INFERIOR COMPARE WHILE OTHER HOSPITALS PROVIDE BETTER CARE.

WE CAN LEARN IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS ABOUT WHAT NEGLIGENCE AND APATHY AND VIOLENCE LOOKS LIKE AND THEN WE CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT WHEN WE HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION THAT CARES.

>> PROFESSOR KHIARA BRIDGES , THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME.

>> FINALLY, THIS YEAR'S LONDON MARATHON WAS NOTHING SHORT OF A HISTORY MAKING RACE.

KENYA'S SEBASTIAN SAWE COMPLETED THE MARATHON IN UNDER TWO HOURS, CLOCKING IN AT ONE HOUR, 59 MINUTES AND 30 SECONDS .

AND ETHIOPIA'S , BROKE HER OWN RECORD IN THE WOMEN'S RACE FINISHING AT TWO HOURS, 15 MINUTES AND 46 SECONDS, BUT IT WASN'T JUST THE ATHLETIC ACHIEVEMENTS THAT CAUGHT THE EYES, JORDAN ADAMS GAINED ATTENTION AFTER RUNNING THE DISTANCE FOR ALZHEIMER'S RESEARCH WEARING A HEAVY FRIDGE ON HIS BACK THAT SYMBOLIZE THE LIVING WITH THE CONDITION.

IT'S INCREDIBLE.

CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE WHO CROSSED THAT FINISH LINE.

- AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AMANPOUR AND COMPANY ON PBS.

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.