- Just ahead on "American Black Journal," our Black church in Detroit series looks at the role of women in the church during the great migration.

We're gonna talk about how the women who migrated from the South supported each other in the church and in the community.

Plus we'll examine the current impact of women in the Black church.

Don't go anywhere.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

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(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm Stephen Henderson.

Today in honor of Women's History Month, we are taking a look at the role of women in the Black Church during the Great Migration.

It's part of our Black Church in Detroit series, which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African-American History.

Now women have long been the backbone of the Black Church, and during the Great migration, women organized church groups and helped build close knit communities.

Here to talk more about the legacy of women in the Black Church is Reverend Dr. Constance Simon.

She is from Fellowship Chapel in Detroit.

Along with her, we've got Reverend Paula Lee Barnes from In His Presence Ministries in Redford.

Welcome both of you to "American Black Journal."

- Thank you so much.

- Thank you for that.

- It's really great to have these conversations right now about the Great Migration.

They're all inspired by Dr. Henry Lewis Gates' documentary.

- Yes.

- That really highlights, you know, the many, many stories about us as a people moving in large numbers outta the south into cities like Detroit.

And of course, Detroit plays a central role in that story because so many people came here.

We haven't talked a whole lot about the special role that women played though in that journey and in the resettling of African Americans in places like Detroit.

So I'm really, I'm really glad to have the two of you here to talk about that.

Dr. Simon, I'm gonna start with you.

What was the role that women played during this time, and why was it so critical and special, kind of standing out from the role that women played in the church at different times in our history?

- Well, I'll tell my family story.

I remember my, the story goes, my grandfather was picking cotton, and someone came from the steel industry and said, I'll pay you $5 a day.

He dropped the bag and left.

- Said I'm going now, right?

- Yeah, he came right up north, and he sent later, after he started making money, sent later for his wife and his family.

My grandmother, however, the story is about how she built our church in Ohio.

- [Stephen] Wow.

- I'm from Ohio.

She built the church.

She did teas.

She set up social programs.

She did a lot of things that helped people maneuver.

So as I'm learning and talking with people, I remember my mother-in-law's story about when she came up from Alabama, and she was going to meet her husband who was working up here, and she gets off the train, but she's got open toed shoes on, and she steps in the snow.

- [Stephen] Oh, wow.

- The translation of the south and the activities and the way people were living coming north, they had to do some adjusting.

- Yeah.

- So they did social things, they did feeding programs.

They were, and church was really the hub, where everyone could go, where everyone met.

I remember even recently, they, someone said to me, a lady said, I haven't said this in a long time to anybody, and I said, what?

She said, your slip is hanging.

They made sure social things were happening.

They made sure you had your adjusted, not just in the social world and how to, you know, maneuver.

But they were also dealing with the economics of families.

They dealt with the political institutions.

They actually were the backbone of the church.

And even today, you know, the church still survives because somebody's grandmother or great-grandmother.

- Sure.

- Sat in and came up and then said oh no, this is what we must do.

- Yeah.

- They taught Sunday school.

They, you know, whatever the need was, and when they saw families struggling they would step in and make sure the family was adjusting.

- Yeah.

- Because the adjustment just in the weather, the adjustment was huge.

- Yeah, night and day, right?

- Yeah.

- You know, I also think about the story you were telling about, I think your grandfather coming up.

- Yeah.

- He leaves his family behind because he's gotta go and take work.

- Right.

- In the north, he's gonna bring them up later, but that means that your grandmother is left to manage everything.

- Right.

- In the community that they left behind.

- Right.

- I mean, that's, that's an important and critical role as well.

- Right, but you still had your nucleus, your family.

- People were still there.

- The cousins, the uncles.

- Right, yeah.

- You know, I think he was the first one to come up to actually explore the territory.

Then after that, others came.

And they had a ritual because, and just, and I think it's similar to what the immigrants do today.

- Yeah.

- I remember my Aunt Pearl saying that Uncle Boo, nicknames, Uncle Boo came up.

Uncle Boo got a job and left his brothers and everyone behind.

And Aunt Pearl was the only daughter.

She came up, and she set up at home, at the home, and then, you know, who can do this, who can do that?

And then as each of them came up, they came, they stayed with her.

And then after a while, when they got on their feet, got a job, got adjusted, then they would move out, and then others would come.

So, you know, it was the community.

And then church was that social hub.

- Yeah.

- That place where you could not just get your spiritual, but you got your political, you got your economic, you know, this is what you need to do.

This is where you need to shop.

Those types of things.

- Yeah, yeah.

This was a time of building in cities like Detroit too.

Building churches, building institutions, and the role that women play in that is really critical, Reverend Barnes.

- Amen, it is, yes, yes.

My story is very similar to Dr. Simon's story, where both my, it started with my grandfather who came first, and then my father came and sent for my mother.

And so one of the very first things that my mother did when she got here was look for a church.

That was so important to her.

- Yes, yes.

- One of the very first things that she did, she looked for a church, and she found a church, and my mother remained in that church until, you know, she was, she was eulogized in that church.

- Wow.

- The church that she came to and joined when she came to Detroit was the church that she stayed in.

- Which church was that?

- It's True Faith.

- Yeah.

- Baptist Church.

- Okay.

- They are no longer organized, but that was the church that my mother was laid to rest in.

And it was important for her because that was her foundation.

That's what she knew.

And there was so much that she did in that church.

Just like Dr. Simon said.

There were many programs that she helped with.

She was an usher.

She was an usher on the usher board.

But they did things to fundraise there.

They did things like cake walks.

I don't know if you're familiar with that.

They called them cake walks and high struts.

- Right, right.

- They did those type of things.

And then the very funny thing, which as a child growing up, I thought it was just so funny, but they had a Mississippi Club.

My mother was from Mississippi, and she discovered that there were so many other people there from Mississippi.

- Yes.

- And they, it was made up of all women, and there must have been about 20 women that were a part of the Mississippi Club.

And they would meet, they would go from house to house monthly.

- Wow.

- And one day I asked her, mom, what do you do in this Mississippi Club?

She said, we talk about Mississippi.

- We talk about Mississippi, right.

- We talk about Mississippi.

We talk about the good times.

We talk about the way things were.

- Yeah.

- And so, yes, it was building, it was not just building of the church, but building communities, building friendships and fellowships.

They, it was important for them to be a part of the church.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- But to also help build the church and to build communities within the church.

- Yes, and we have lots of churches in the city now that were built during that time.

Right, people came and joined churches in some cases, but a lot of people came and started things.

- Yes.

- And women played a huge role in that as well.

So let's talk about now and how that looks different.

How over time that role changes or maybe stays the same in the Black Church, Reverend Simon.

- Well, I'd say it's an interesting question that you're asking.

- I mean, you're both pastors, right?

- Yes.

- That's a big change, right?

- But the role, when women came up during the migration, they came up and did pretty much what was expected of them.

They came in and they did whatever it is they had to do.

They were in leadership, but they were never given that title or acknowledged for all that they, actually, I'd say most churches would be gone and flat if it wasn't for the women historically.

So these women came up, and they started doing things.

Today it's a little different, but not much 'cause we're still considered a second role in some churches.

Some women are not allowed to stand in the pulpit.

You know, you have to stand on the floor.

I've robed up and had ministers look at me like what does she think she's doing?

- Oh, she would never.

(cross talking) - Yeah, now I said, what, this is Fellowship Chapel.

You're at my church.

So let's change our attitude.

Well, when we, as we've progressed, and I'd say this is Black women in general, from a womanist point of view, we've always continued to do whatever was necessary.

Not just for our own, but for anybody that needed the help.

But have we gotten the recognition for it?

Very little.

Women have broken through, you know, some barriers.

There are women bishops now.

Women are running churches.

But for the most part, we still don't get the acknowledgement.

And what's interesting, looking at the Great migration was a lot of women were doing great things in leadership, but in their regular personal lives, they were domestic.

- [Stephen] Right.

- They were, you know, working outside the home.

And in one, in a lot of cases, you know, the world did not know who they were.

But when they stepped into church, and it was for Black men also.

They received their agency.

They received an identity that was their true heart's identity, different from what the rest of the world, you know, saw them as, you know, yeah.

- Reverend Barnes?

- You know, I have to speak from a personal experience, and I remember there was a woman at my church.

It was an elderly woman, and she went by, her name was Aetna Brown.

We called her Mother Aetna Brown.

But she was a preacher.

Everyone knew she was a preacher.

But she never preached from the pulpit.

Like Dr. Connie said, she always would stand on the floor and evangelize.

She would talk to us.

It was during Sunday school or during a meeting or something.

You could hear the preacher in her.

So when a new pastor came, we began to call her Reverend Mother Aetna Brown because he recognized the gift in her.

He recognized that she was a preacher, and eventually we saw her transition from the floor to the pulpit.

- To the pulpit, yeah.

- Because of his foresight, because of his open-mindedness, he accepted her.

He allowed her to preach, not just on Women's Day, not from the floor, but because she had the gift.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- And it was recognized.

So, and then I have a similar experience.

Fortunately, I've never been not accepted, you know.

I don't know if I choose to not go to those places.

- [Stephen] Right.

- Maybe that's it.

There has been one situation, and I was in the south in my parents' hometown, and we were visiting, my husband and I were visiting a church, and it was actually my dad's, the church that my dad grew up in.

And so the cousin came to me and said, I just want you to know, you have to sit down here.

You can't go up in the pulpit.

And I was fine with it.

I wasn't, that was not what my expectations were that day.

I was there to sit and to listen, but I was told that I would not be accepted in the pulpit.

- Right.

- But I don't know if it was just because I grew up here, you know, in Detroit or in the North that I've just never felt that I've been in a situation where I was not accepted.

- Yeah, talk about your current ministry and how that looks there.

How gender and gender roles get defined there.

- Okay, well, I am, I serve as Executive Pastor.

Sometimes people use the term co-pastor because my husband and I co-pastor.

- Co-pastor, yeah.

- Together, yes.

And again, I have never, you know, my husband encourages me whenever, just let me know when you're ready.

Or is this your Sunday?

You know, we have exchanged Sundays.

My role in what I do is more in administrative work, programs.

He is more so the preacher.

Now, don't get me wrong, I can, you know, I can.

- You can bring it right?

- I can bring it, you know, I can bring it.

But my preference is to bring the programs.

We have summer programs for youth.

We do food pantries, the Resurrection Easter programs for the children.

I serve more in an administrative executive type of role than he does, and so I recognize that my gifts are here, here and here.

- Right.

- And his gifts are here.

Although I wear several hats.

- Yeah.

- But I have never been restricted.

I have never been bound, you know, in that sense, as far as preaching.

- Yeah.

- And so I'm grateful for that.

- Yeah.

- I am.

But at the same time, I recognize, I remember Reverend Mother Aetna Brown.

I remember when she couldn't preach from the pulpit.

I remember when she was restricted to the podium on the floor.

- [Stephen] Yeah - I remember that.

And so I don't take the opportunities that I'm given for granted because I do remember.

- The role of support in the church that women have played.

It seems like right now, given all the things that we're dealing with, not just in the city, but in the, in the country.

- Yeah.

- It's calling on Black women again.

- Yes.

- To play a particular role in terms of the church.

I wonder what that looks like in your congregations.

- Well, at Fellowship Chapel, because Reverend Anthony's over the largest NAACP in the country.

- Yes.

- That's part of just what we do.

- Activism is built into.

- Yes, well, and I tell people, I said, you know, you have to understand, it's not just telling people what Jesus did.

You have to demonstrate what Jesus did.

Don't just limit it to a story.

It's an action.

Faith without works is dead.

So it's always been embraced in the Fellowship Chapel.

You know, there are two females, there are actually four of us, and two females, Reverend Reynolds and myself.

And we get full reign.

I get to, I don't wanna say I get to do what I wanna do.

No, I'm respected.

Let me say it in those words.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- But when we look at it overall, and look at, oh, I'll give you an excellent example.

When Kamala Harris said she was running for President, a national women's call went out, and it was led by female ministers.

- Yeah.

- Yes.

- Bishop Dottery.

I mean, the women, oh, but for the women, they stepped up.

Matter of fact, the first night, the Zoom crashed, I believe, it was too many people.

And I just came from Selma.

So, you know, I'm really geared up.

- Right.

- And there's an older woman who has kept that legacy going for the march across the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

So women, we don't stop.

- Right.

- Won't stop, don't stop.

- You can't get a break.

- We can't, we don't get any credit for it.

But I don't think, I don't think, the lack of credit hasn't stopped us from doing what's right because the good of the whole is the outcome, you know?

- Yeah, Reverend Barnes, what's that look like in your world now?

The trouble that people are, I think, struggling with in many ways, and fear in a lot of cases.

- It's important for us as ministers and preachers of the gospel.

Yes, we have to preach the gospel, but we also have to preach the gospel of today and what's going on today.

And help people to be aware and to know what's going on, and to open up your eyes and open up your ears, and then eventually open up your mouths and let people know that we have this power.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- You know, there is something that we can do.

We have to stand up, we have to fight.

We have to go where we're called to go, or do what we're asked to do in order to be a support and to offer, you know, what is needed in these days and times.

Because sometimes we may be the only ones.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- You know, we may be the only ones.

It's important that we speak up in the church.

Sometimes we choose to be, I don't wanna use the word complacent, but sometimes things aren't set to, young people aren't given or told the things that, you know, the elderly people used to tell us.

Or, you know, and taught.

They're not taught the respect that they should have for themselves because people just don't wanna speak up.

So it's important.

The power of women is so important, especially in these days and times.

- Yeah, what about young women?

And I'm thinking of not just young adult women, but young girls in your congregations and what you see for them that might be possible that wasn't as easy or or possible for you.

Is it still moving forward?

- Well, I think about my daughter.

My daughter is very active in our church.

And sometimes I have to think about what's important because when I see her, I see how she dresses.

- Yeah.

- Because they don't dress, they don't come to church dressed like I went to church dressed.

- Right.

- But then I have to think that's not that important because she knows the Word.

- Yeah.

- She's in the church.

She's on the praise team, she's on the media team, and so.

- She's doing the work.

- She's doing the work.

She knows the Word.

She knows right from wrong.

- Yeah.

- And so, I hope I'm getting to your question, so.

- Well, so is there, is there more for her, I guess is, than there was for you or?

- I absolutely believe there is more for her.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I absolutely think there is more for her because when I look at her and see, first of all, I see a very intelligent young woman when I see her.

I always, I tell people all the time, she's so much further along at her age in ministry than I was when I was her age.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- So I think there are great opportunities for her, but it's important, like I said, that the power of women, that we are there to help them along the way.

- Yes, yes.

- To speak up.

To say, do this, don't do that.

This is what's gonna help you.

That's not going to help you.

- Yeah.

- So there can be.

- Yeah.

- There absolutely is.

And there can be.

- Yeah.

- What about at the?

- At Fellowship, I think we started through Reverend Anthony, one of the first male mentoring programs.

It was called Isuthu.

And shortly after that, they started a young ladies mentoring program called Intonjane.

- [Stephen] Okay.

- But our programming, everything is not just for just our kids, it's open to everyone.

And yes, we do it intentionally to deal with the young people, talk with them about what's going on, what things are important to them.

When it comes to the dress and the clothes, a grandmother said when, I guess she said it over Bible study, she said, "Would you talk to my granddaughter?

"She's got those heavy eyelashes on."

And I saw the granddaughter and said, "We need to have a talk.

"Grandma did tell me this."

And you know, I said, we'll talk later.

But we have to take a necessary and intentional interest in everything they do.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- Even with dating and how being respectful, and we're up against media, yes.

- A very different kind of media.

- Oh, yes, a very different kind of media.

But I think some of the young people see the difference.

- Yeah.

- See the difference.

We're not telling them like they used to say in the old days, you know, you can't wear your skirt above your knee.

You have to have your shoulders covered.

- Covered, yes.

- Oh, lipstick, oh, no, makeup, terrible.

So we know that times have changed, and we have to move with that, but there's also doing things within reason.

- And do you see them moving toward leadership in a different way than you were?

- Yes.

- Yes.

- Problem solving and ways that make you happy.

It's like, oh, she said that, and we didn't know it.

So yeah, yeah.

- You know, I just wanted to say something about that.

So during Covid, you know, everyone had something going on.

It became a problem for most of us, but for the churches.

- Yeah.

- And so it was my daughter who said, you know, we can do this.

You know, let's do this.

Let's, you know, here's the software.

Let's get the software.

We can do this.

- Yes.

- She was the one who said, you can do this mom.

- Right.

- And, and yes, to her, and so many of the other young women at the church, I see them in leadership roles and stepping up and saying let's do it this way.

And it's not so that it's everything that we did or that they do is better.

It's different.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- It's different.

- And it's not power and control, it's working with us.

- Yes.

- Because I remember during the pandemic, and I live by myself since I'm a widow, and they can't, I said, oh, I'm going to the grocery store.

I'm gonna dress, and I'm gonna take the clothes.

And I'm going through this whole ritual.

They said, no, you're not.

I said, what do you mean, no, I'm not.

How am I going to get, they taught me Instacart.

- Yeah, right.

- DoorDash.

- Make sure you can do it.

- Yeah, every drive by.

It was just wonderful.

Well, one of the things we have to remember, and one of the things we stress is that when you look at a woman like Harriet Tubman, when you look at the historic things that have happened, Fannie Lou Hamer, they're powerful women that they need to realize that are part of their DNA.

- That are part of them.

- Yes, yes.

- And pushing them forward.

- Yeah, and if we don't tell them, because especially with the way our history is being manipulated now, if we don't tell them and then show 'em and have them show us that they're able to do it, they'll miss the miss out.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- Okay, wonderful conversation.

Thank both of you for being here.

And of course, thanks for all the things you do in the Black Church.

- Oh, thank you.

- So that's gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can always connect with us on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] From Delta Faucets to Behr Paint, Masco Corporation is proud to deliver products that enhance the way consumers all over the world experience and enjoy their living spaces.

Masco, serving Michigan communities since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Narrator] DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Among the state's largest foundations committed to Michigan-focused giving, we support organizations that are doing exceptional work in our state.

Learn more at dtefoundation.com.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

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