>>> FROM SHAKESPEARE TO ELON MUSK >>> MARIE CURIE TO TAYLOR SWIFT, WHAT ACTUALLY MAKES A GENIUS?

AND WHY ARE WE SO ATTACHED TO THE TERM?

THAT'S THE SUBJECT OF JOURNALIST AND ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER HELEN LEWIS' LATEST BOOK.

AND SHE JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN.

>> Reporter: THANK YOU AND HELEN LEWIS, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR BOOK IS CALLED THE GENIUS MYTH.

LET'S START WITH THAT.

WHY IS IT A MYTH AND WHY IN YOUR SUBTITLE DO YOU CALL IT DANGEROUS?

>> WELL, I THINK THE FIRST THING I SHOULD SAVE IS GENIUS IS NOT --WHAT I DO THINK HAPPENS IS THAT WE END UP WRITING STORIES AROUND THEM.

THE TEMPLATES REALLY WE KIND OF JAM REAL LIFE HUMAN STORIES INTO.

AND YOU CAN SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF ME MOST OBVIOUS EXAMPLES IS SOMEBODY LIKE SHAKESPEARE.

UNDOUBTLY INCREDIBLY GIFTED PLAYWRIGHT BUT WHEN HE DIED HE WAS NOT RECOGNIZED AS THE SHAKESPEARE WE KNOW TODAY.

HE WAS, YOU KNOW, A WELL RESPECTED PLAYWRIGHT AND IT TOOK A LOT OF PEOPLE OVER THE COURSE OF THE NEXT TWO CENTURIES TO BUILD UP THE MYTH.

THE LEGEND OF THIS KIND OF THE BARD OF AVON AND TO MAKE HIM INTO THE FIGURE THAT HE IS NOW.

>> Reporter: ONE OF THOSE MYTH MAKERS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THIS WONDERFUL BIOGRAPHER.

ESPECIALLY OF RENAISSANCE AND OF MICHELANGELO AND LEONARDO.

AND OTHERS.

ONE OF THE THINGS HE WRITES ABOUT LEONARDO da VINCI IS HE WAS TOUCHED BY GOD WITH HIS INCREDIBLE TALENTS AS IF HE AB ANOINTED AND WHEN I WROTE ABOUT HIM.

I GO NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

THIS GUY WASN'T NECESSARILY A GENIUS DIFFERENT FROM EVERYBODY ELSE.

BUT HE WORKED HARDER AND HE -- HE TAUGHT HIMSELF.

HE READ BOOKS.

HE DID EXPERIMENTS.

TO WHAT EXTENT IS GENIUS INNATE THE WAY HE SAYS AND TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU HAVE TO WORK AT IT?

>> I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE --WHO START OFF WITH A PARTICULAR TALENT.

BUT YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.

WHAT THEY CHOOSE TO DO WITH THAT TALENT IS PART OF IT AND ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK THE RESEARCH DOES BAR OUT IS LOTS OF PEOPLE AND LOTS OF MILITARY LEADERS AND LOTS OF PEOPLE WE WOULD SAY ARE GENIUSES HAD A BROKEN OR UNHAPPY CHILDHOOD AND THAT GAVE THEM SOME SORT OF INTERNAL ENGINE THAT DROVE THEM TO SUCCEED.

I THINK WHAT YOU FOUND RESEARCHING HIM IS BORNE OUT BRING SO MANY OTHER CASES AND YOU HAVE SOMEBODY WHO HAS AN APTITUDE.

BUT THEY ALSO HAVE THIS KIND OF DRIVE IN THEM THAT TAKES THEM PAST OTHER PEOPLE AND ALSO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK IS UNDERRATED IS THEY HAVE TO BE WILLING DO DEAL WITH ENVY.

THEY HAVE TO BE WILLING TO BE DIFFERENT AND NOT EVERYBODY ACTUALLY FINDS THAT PARTICULARLY COMFORTABLE.

>> JR. YOU BEGIN AND END THE BOOK WITH ELON MUSK AND YOU HAVE THAT PROBLEM WE ALL HAVE, I HAVE BEEN THERE.

OF PEOPLE WANTING IT TO BE BINARY WHICH IS --OH, HE'S A GENIUS.

OH NO.

HE'S A TOTAL IDIOT AND JUST STOLE EVERYTHING.

WE'RE NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS NONBINARY THING.

EXPLAIN THAT WHEN IT COMES TO THE GENIUS MYTH.

>> YEAH, I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT.

THIS IS MY IDEA THAT GENIUSES YOU KNOW, ANOINTING SOMEBODY A GENIUS IS OFTEN A KIND OF POLITICAL ARGUMENT BEHIND IT.

AND ELON MUSK IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT.

YOU KNOW THE PEOPLE WHO CHAMPIONED HIM OFTEN SEE HIM AS THIS KIND OF SUPERMAN YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF AMERICAN DREAM OF SOMEBODY WHO JUST HAD THIS EXCEPTIONAL DRIVE AND TALENT AND MADE IT ON THEIR OWN.

THEN PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THAT MUCH AND MUCH MORE STRESS THE KIND OF, YOU KNOW,, THE INFLUENCE OF SOCIETY AND THE FACT THE SUPPORT HE GOT FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND ALL THAT KIND OF THING.

FOR HIS BUSINESSES.

OR THEY WANT TO DEBUNK HIM ENTIRELY BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE HIS POLITICS AND THEREFORE THEY FEEL THAT CHAMPIONING HIM IS A BUSINESSMAN IS KIND OF EXTENSION OF CHAMPIONING HIS POLITICS.

SO MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE GENIUSES, THERE ARE SOME KIND OF ARGUMENT GOING ON ABOUT THE ASSESSMENT OF THEM.

YOU KNOW, THAT CAN BE IN THE CASE OF PERHAPS SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THE --ARGUMENT FOR ONE CITY IN ITALY OVER ANOTHER CITY.

IT COULD BE AN ARGUMENT IN THE CASE OF SHAKESPEARE FOR THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEING THE MOST BEAUTIFUL LANGUAGE IN THE WORLD.

SO YOU KNOW ENDS UP KIND OF CONSCRIPTING THESE PEOPLE INTO THIS WIDER MYTHOLOGY.

BUT I REALLY LIKED ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU SAID ABOUT MUSK IN THE BOOK.

WHICH WAS THAT THE WAY TO UNDERSTAND HIM REALLY APART FROM ANYTHING ELSE AS A RISK TAKER.

THAT DOES GIVE YOU GOOD INSIGHT INTO THE FANG THERE'S --THEY CALL IT THE TEXAS SHARP SHOOTER POLICY.

YOU FIRE AT A BARN DOOR AND THEN DRAW A CIRCLE AROUND IT.

HE'S THE RUN RISK TAKER FOR WHOM THE RISK CAME OFF.

THAT AGAIN WE LOOK AT THE TRY AND WORK BACK.

MAYBE THAT ISN'T YOU KNOW, MAYBE THERE'S A VERSION OF HIM FOR WHOM ONE OF THOSE REALLY BIG GAMBLES DIDN'T COME OFF AND WE'RE SIMPLY NEVER GOING TO HEAR ABOUT THEM.

>> Reporter: ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENS TO GENIUSES IN YOUR BOOK, IT'S ALL ME PHENOMENON, IS THEY GET SORT OF INTOXICATED AS LEONARD USED TO SAY, THEY LOVE THE SMELL OF THEIR OWN PERFUME.

HOW OFTEN DOES THAT HAPPEN TO GENIUSES AND IS THAT A PROBLEM YOU SEE WITH ELON MUSK?

>> I MEAN, I THINK THAT DOES HAPPEN.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IF YOU JUST THINK YOU ARE A SPECIAL PERSON, YOU DON'T START TO THINK I'M TALENTED PERSON WHO IS LUCKY TO HAVE THESE PEOPLE AROUND ME AND BE UNDER THESE SOCIAL CONDITIONS.

YOU THINK I CAN TRANSFER THIS ANYWHERE.

AND I DO THINK MUSK IS A REALLY GOOD EXAMPLE OF THAT AND YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY THAT PEOPLE OFTEN DOWNPLAY HIS EARLIER ACHIEVEMENTS BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIKE HIS POM TICKS AND ACTUALLY I DON'T THINK YOU NEED TO DO THAT TO SAY THAT THEY ARE EXCITING COMPANIES BUT TO THINK THE PRIVATE SECTOR INTO PUBLIC SECTOR AND GOVERNMENT WHOLESALE WAS HUBRIS YOU KNOW.

THAT WAS --I THINK A MISTAKE.

AND SURE ENOUGH, IT RAN INTO TROUBLE BECAUSE IT'S A LOT HARDER TO MAKE THINGS WORK IN A GOVERNMENT THAT HAS TO SERVE EVERYBODY THEN YOU KNOW,NY YOU ARE RUNNING A CAR COMPANY YOU ARE TRYING TO SELL TO A PARTICULAR SEGMENT.

I JUST SAW A SIMILAR THING EARLIER THAT SAM ALTMAN OF OpenAI WRITTEN.

THIS MANIFESTO FOR ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE AND HE SAID ONE OF THE WAYS WE CAN TELL WE'RE NOT SUPER INTELLIGENCE YET IS WE HAVE NOT CURED ALL DISEASES.

AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS REALLY KIND OF FASCINATING TO ME BECAUSE IT'S IMPLYING THAT CURING ALL DISEASES IS PURELY A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM.

AND NOW IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST FIVE YEARS THE mRNA VACCINE, THAT'S AN INCREDIBLE BREAKTHROUGH IN SCIENCE.

BUT GUESS WHAT?

LOTS OF PEOPLE DON'T WANT THAT VACCINE BECAUSE THEY DON'T TRUST VACCINES OR BIG PHARMA.

SO TO THE IDEA THAT YOU WOULD THINK THAT SOLVING DISEASE IS ONLY A TECHNOLOGICAL PROBLEM VERSION OF WHAT I'M TALKING ABILITY THE GENIUS MYTH.

YOU NEED PEOPLE TO ADVOCATE FOR TREATMENTS AND YOU NEED DELIVERY SYSTEMS TO GET THE TREATMENTS TO THEM.

ALL THE STUFF AROUND THAT'S ABOUTSET AND POLITICS BUT BECAUSE PEOPLE GET SO INTO THEIR LANE THEY DON'T NECESSARILY LOOK AND SEE THE FULL PICTURE.

>> OKAY.

LET'S TAKE PAUL AND JOHN.

YOU KNOW, PAUL McCARTNEY AND JOHN LENNON AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT COLLECTIVE GENIUS BECAUSE MAYBE IT'S ONLY WHEN YOU PUT THESE TWO STAR SYSTEMS TOGETHER THAT YOU GET GENIUS.

>> YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A REALLY LOVELY IDEA AND IT WOULD --PEOPLE HAVE BEEN MORE AWARE OF IT WOULD HELP THEM DEEM WITH THE FACT THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE A KIND OF HOT STREAK AND DOESN'T LAST FOREVER.

AND YOU KNOW, THAT DOES MAKE PEOPLE VULNERABLE TO THINK IT'S NOT ALL YOU YOU KNOW.

YOU NEED SOMEONE ELSE WHETHER IT'S THERE'S A MUSE OR A BRILLIANT MANAGER OR YOUR SONG WRITING PARTNER.

WHETHER OR NOT YOU KNOW, IT'S YOUR ILLUSTRATOR AND YOU ARE THE WRITER.

WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

BUT I THINK THIS IS WHAT I MEAN BEING QUITE POISONOUS BECAUSE PEOPLE DO START THINKING IT'S ALL ME AND EVERYBODY ELSE BECOMES A KIND OF SUPPORTING CHARACTER AND THEY'RE THE PROTAGONIST OF REALITY.

>> WELL, WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THE BEATLES.

I REMEMBER STEVE JOBS WHO WAS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT GENIUS AT ONE POINT.

SITTING THERE IN HIS LIVING ROOM AND HE'S PLAYING THE BOOTLEG TAPES OF JOHN AND PAUL TRYING TO GET STRAWBERRY FIELDS FOREVER RIGHT.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

AND HE SAID TO ME, IT WAS NOT JUST GENIUS, IT WAS TWO PEOPLE ITERATING.

WORKING WITHEACH OTHER UNTIL THEY GOT IT RIGHT.

>> THAT'S REALLY BEAUTIFUL I THINK AND I THINK IT --ALMOST SCARES PEOPLE BECAUSE IT MAKES IT SEEM EVEN MORE RANDOM AND UNPREDICTABLE.

I THINK IF YOU WATCHED GET BACK THAT WONDERFUL PETER JACKSON DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE BEATLES, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT --BEAUTIFUL DOCUMENTARY.

IT IS IN PLACES ALMOST BORING BECAUSE YOU ARE WATCHING GENUINELY HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR THEM TO SIT THERE AND NOODLE AROUND ON STUFF AND SET UP THE BACK WHICH IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE BEATLE SONGS SORT OF JUST EMERGES OUT OF PAUL'S FINGERS ON IN GUITAR.

YOU ARE WATCHING THAT PROCESS OF SOMEONE PUTTING THEMSELVES INTO THE CREATIVE STATE WHERE A MOMENT OF GENIUS CAN STRIKE.

BUT OBVIOUSLY YOU CANNOT FORCE IT.

AND NEITHER, YOU KNOW, McCARTNEY OR LENNON EVER WROTE AS WELL WITH OTHER PEOPLE AS THEY DID JUST THE TWO OF THEM.

SO CLEARLY THERE WAS A BURNING INTENSITY OF RELATIONSHIP.

WHICH WAS FINITE WHICH ONLY LASTED FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD OF TIME.

>> ONE OF THE ISSUES IN YOUR BOOK IS WHY ARE GENIUSES SO OFTEN JERKS AS WE'VE SAID AND ARCHEUSED AN EXAMPLE I WROTE ABOUT WHICH IS STEVE WOZNIAK THE PARTNER OF STEVE JOBS AT @ BEGINNING OF MY REPORTING SORT OF SAID YOU HAVE TO ASK DID HE HAVE TO BE SO MEAN?

I ASKED WHAT'S THE ANSWER?

HE SAID I WOULD HAVE BEEN NICER BUT IF I HAD RUN APPLE WE PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN TO THE iPhone.

TELL ME TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU HAVE TO BE A JERK IN ORDER TO >> I REALLY STRUGGLE WITH THAT BECAUSE AGAIN, I WONDER IF WE JUST --YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A SORT OF SAMPLING BIAS OF HEARING ABOUT IT BECAUSE PEOPLE FEEL INNATELY THAT'S KIND OF THAT SHOULD BE HOW IT WORKS.

ONE OF THE MOST INTERESTING DISCOVERIES FOR ME AND I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS DUH FOUND THIS IN YOUR REPORTING ABOUT THESE KIND OF BIG FIGURES.

IS HOW MUCH THE PEOPLE AROUND THEM GET FROM THIS EXCHANGE.

THERE'S A VERY SIMPLE STORY WE TELL OF A KIND OF STOCKHOLM SYNDROME WHERE PEOPLE ARE AROUND A BRILLIANT JERK AND THEIR LIVES ARE MISERABLE.

BUT THE FUNNY THING TO ME WAS FINDING OUT HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE HAVE CHOSEN TO DO THAT.

THEY COULD WALK AWAY.

THE.

FOR ME THE EXAMPLE WAS THE WIFE OF LEO TOLSTOY THE RUSSIAN NOVELIST.

SHE HATED HIM AND SAID SHE WAS CONSTANTLY PREGNANT AND HE WAS PLUNDERING HER LIFE FOR HIS NOVELS BUT WHEN IN MIDDLE AGE HE DRIFTED AWAY FROM HER, AND HE HAD A NEW PRIMARY RELATIONSHIP IN HIS LIFE; THIS VERY STRONG FRIENDSHIP WITH A YOUNG MILITARY OFFICER.

SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATED.

SO, YOU KNOW, SHE WROTE IN HER DIARY ABOUT THE FACT SHE WAS SUPPRESSING HER OWN CREATIVETIVE AND GENIUS IN THE SERVICE OF THIS GREAT MAN BUT WHEN HE WAS TAKEN AWAY SHE WAS HEARTBROKEN BY IT AND I THINK THAT'S A REALLY INTERESTING THING.

IS THAT YES, ONE OF THE THINGS IS MAYBE PEOPLE LIKE BEING AROUND THE BRILLIANT JERKS BECAUSE THEY FEEL SOMETHING BIG IS HAPPENING AND IF THEY'RE SACRIFICING THERE'S SOMETHING EXCITE GOING ON.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING I DIDN'T EXPECT WHEN I WENT INTO WRITING THIS.

>> YOU DON'T REALLY HAVE ANY EXAMPLES I THINK OF A WOMAN WHO IS CONSIDERED A GENIUS.

WHY IS THAT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME THAT WOULD I THINK ENTER THE CANON.

THAT MARIE CURIE FOR EXAMPLE THE CHEMIST WOULD BE ONE EXAMPLE.

TAYLOR SWIFT NOW.

BUT YOU HAVE TO BE VERY HONEST AND I SAY THIS SOMEONE WHO'S WRITTEN A FEMINIST HISTORY THAT OUR CANON OF GENIUSES IS REALLY MALE.

AND NOW THE INTERESTING QUESTION BECOMES IS THAT SOMETHING THAT IS BIOLOGICAL OR SOCIAL?

AND I THINK THE JURY IS OUT.

THERE ARE THINGS YOU CAN SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT MEN ARE ON AVERAGE MORE AMBITIOUS AND THEY ARE MORE WILLING TO SACRIFICE FAMILY AND DOMESTIC LIFE FOR THEIR CAREERS AND THEY'RE MORE WILLING TO BE SELFISH IN THOSE CAREERS BUT ALSO THE FACT THAT SOCIETY TRADITIONALLY MADE IT MUCH EASIER FOR THEM.

THE THING THAT'S EASY TOO FORGET NOW, YOU KNOW, SITTING HERE IN 2025, IS JUST THE ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF BARRIERS THERE HAVE BEEN TO PEOPLE WHO WERE EXCLUDED FROM THE CATEGORY OF GENIUS.

YOU KNOW, IN BRITAIN, WHERE LIVE, WOMEN COULDN'T GO TO UNIVERSITY UNTIL 150 YEARS AGO.

YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED IN THE BOOK, EXTRAORDINARY PHYSICIST, SHE WON THE HUGHES MEDAL FROM THE ROSS SOCIETY BUT SHE WAS NOT ALLOWED TO JOIN THE ROSS SOCIETY.

SO THESE PLACE -- >> Reporter: SHE WAS A VERY CLOSE FRIEND OF MARIE CURIE WHO ALSO WON THE MEDAL.

>> RIGHT.

ONLY INHERITED HER PROFESSORSHIP WHEN PIERRE DIED.

YOU ARE NOT BEING IN THE PLACE EXCITING DISCUSSIONS ARE HAPPENING.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY THE SAME THING FROM THE EXCLUSION OF BLACK AMERICANS FROM LARGER PARTS OF THE ACADEMY OR ACTUALLY THE WAY THAT THE IVY LEAGUE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST JEWISH AMERICANS IN THE EARLY PART OF THE 20s SEARCHRY.

IT WANTED TO TRY TO PRESERVE THE KIND OF WASPY NATURE OF THE INSTITUTIONS.

THROUGH TIME YOU GET HUGE NUMBERS OF OF CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE HAVE THESE IMMENSE LEGAL SOCIAL BARRIERS PUT IN THEIR WAY.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THAT WILL CHANGE.

I AM NOT ENTIRELY SURE THAT IT WILL COMPLETELY CHANGE BECAUSE I THINK WE ARE MORE HAPPY TO LOOK UP TO MEN AND A LOT OF THIS IS ABOUT US THE KIND OF CROWD AND THE HERO WORSHIP OF THE CROWD.

MAYBE MORE MEN WHO ARE MORE WILLING TO CLIMB ON THE PEDESTAL BUT ALSO MORE COMFORTABLE WITH MEN DOING THAT.

DON'T MAYBE TAKE IT SO WELL WHEN WOMEN ARE OVERTLY AMBITIOUS AND DRIVEN IN THE WAY YOU HAVE TO BE TO BE CALLED A GENIUS.

>> Reporter: THE 250th ANNIVERSARY AND YOU LOOK AT THE TRUE GENIUSES, I THINK MADISON AND JEFFERSON PROBABLY COUNT.

AND YOU LOOK AT THE PASSION OF PEOPLE LIKE JOHN AND SAMUEL ADAMS WHO FIT IN THAT CATEGORY.

BUT THE PERSON WHO'S THE GLUE IS THE BENJAMIN FRANKLIN.

HE'S NOT THE SENATOR --HE'S NOT THE GENIUS THERE BUT HE'S THE WISEST.

HOW IMPORTANT IS WISDOM LIKE THAT COMPARED TO GENIUS?

>> THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU WOULD SAY THAT.

BECAUSE I HAVE NOT EVER REALLY THOUGHT OF IT LIKE THAT BUT ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, TOO MANY GIANT EGOS IN ONE PLACE CAN BE EXCITING BUT ALSO BE INTENSELY COMBUSTIBLE AND YOU KNOW, THIS IS PROBABLY THE FIRST TIME THIS COMPARISON EVER BEEN MADE BUT I WONDER TO SOME EXTENT IF HE IS LIKE RINGO STARR.

IN THE GET BACK SESSIONS.

EVERYONE JUSTLIKES HAVING HIM AROUND AND ACTUALLY YOU ARE RIGHT.

HE'S THE GLUE.

HE'S THE RIGHT FIT FOR THE OTHER KIND OF COMBUSTIBLE PERSONALITIES THAT HOLDS THE WHOLE THING TOGETHER.

AND I THINK WE CAN OFTEN UNDERRATE THOSE PEOPLE.

BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT DEMANDING TO BE PUSHING TO THE FRONT AND BEING A PROTAGONIST.

THINK THAT IS REALLY INTERESTING AND YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE'S A REALLY INTERESTING INTERPLAY BETWEEN KNOWLEDGE AND ORIGINAL THINKING.

AND LOTS OF THE STUDIES OF CREATIVITY LOOKED AT OVER A LIFETIME AND IT'S TRUE THAT SOME THINGS DO SEEM TO PEAK EARLY.

MATHEMATICIANS REALLY DO PEAK EARLY BUT FOR LOTS OF OTHER PROFESSIONS ACTUALLY BUILDING UP KNOWLEDGE IS GOOD.

BUT AGAIN SOMETIMES IT'S ABOUT WHY YOU WOULD WANT TO WORK INTERGENERATIONALLY.

YOU WOULD WANT TO WORK IN A LAB WHERE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE OLDER AND THEN YOU HAVE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE YOUNGER AND WHO DON'T HAVE ANY PRECONCEPTIONS AND WHO DON'T KNOW THE WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN DONE.

I THINK AGAIN, IF YOU ARE TRYING TO SET UP, YOU KNOW, COMPANIES, THAT'S THE REALLY INTERESTING THING TO THINK ABOUT.

ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE THE BEST SILICON VALLEY COMPANY IF IT'S EVERYBODY IN SIT IS A 30-YEAR- OLD WITH THE SAME LIFE EXPERIENCE OR MORE INTERESTING TO HAVE SOME 60-YEAR-OLDS AROUND?

I WONDER IF THAT'S SOMETHING THAT KIND OF GETS MISSED.

>> Reporter: AS WE ENTER THIS ERA OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, DO YOU THINK MACHINES GENIUSES AND WHAT CAN THAT QUEST TEACH US ABOUT GENIUS?

>> I --I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS A LOT.

BECAUSE CLEARLY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEVELOPED VERY QUICKLY VERY INTENSE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS WITH AIs.

BUT I SORT OF --I GO BACK TO THERE'S AN INTERESTING PAPER WHICH SHOWED PEOPLE POETRY WRITTEN BY AI AND THEY FOUND OUT THE PEOPLE RATED THE AI POETRY HIGHER THAN THE HUMAN POETRY OR YOU KNOW, THEY THOUGHT IT WAS AS GOOD AS IT BECAUSE AI CAN DO A VERY CONVINCING IMITATION OF WHOEVER IT MIGHT BE.

BUT WHEN THEY FOUND OUT THAT IT WAS WRITTEN BY AN AI THEY CHANGED THEIR MINDS AND THEY LIKED IT LESS.

>> ALLAN TOURING IN THE PAPER THOUGH SAYS BUT MAYBE A SONNET WRITTEN BY A COMPUTER IS SOMETHING ONLY ANOTHER COMPUTER CAN FULLY APPRECIATE.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

>> WHAT WERE THE OUTLIERS.

>> THAT'S TRUE.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?

I THINK THERE'S --PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW THE BIOGRAPHIES OF FAMOUS PEOPLE, AND INNOVATIVE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DRIVES PEOPLEMAD ABOUT SHAKESPEARE.

MAYBE IT'S THE EARL OF OXFORD OR A WOMAN BECAUSE THEY KIND OF CAN'T LIVE WITH THE IDEA THAT THERE'S THIS HUGE BODY OF WORK AND WE DON'T HAVE EVERYTHING THAT WE NEED --WE WANT TO ME ABOUT THE PERSON BEHIND IT AND THAT TO ME, I THINK THERE'S THAT DESIRE TO READ A NOVEL AND FEEL THAT WE'RE CONNECTING WITH ANOTHER BRAIN ACROSS TIME THAT THESE ARE HUMAN EMOTIONS.

AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE BIT THAT --THAT'S THE PITA AI CAN'T REPLACE IS THAT FEELING OF --MAYBE IT'S, YOU KNOW, ALL A FACADE AND MAYBE WE'RE DELUDING OURSELVES BUT I THINK WE WANT IT.

>> IS THERE SOME USEFULNESS TO THE CONCEPT OF GENIUS?

ISN'T IT SOMETHING THAT ACTUALLY IS GOOD FOR US TO HAVE?

>> THAT'S --I THINK THAT'S TRUE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE MAYBE A BIT MORE TOLERANCE FOR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT NEURODIVERGENCE FOR EXAMPLE, THINK THE CONCEPT OF GENIUS REALLY HELPS WITH THAT OR PEOPLE WHO MAYBE STRUGGLE WITH SCHIZOPHRENIA OR BIPOLAR DISORDER.

THEY'RE DIFFICULT TO BE AROUND BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE USELESS AND THEY CANNOT CONTRIBUTE.

I THINK GENIUS HELPED THE CATEGORIES OF PEOPLE.

BECAUSE IT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED THAT SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW, YOU DON'T GET ONE THING WITHOUT ANOTHER.

I THINK STEPHEN FRY TALKED ABOUT LIVING WITH BIPOLAR.

HE SAID, YOU KNOW, THE LOWS ARE REALLY, REALLY BAD BUT THE HIGHS ARE INCREDIBLE AND I FEEL SO PRODUCTIVE.

I CAN'T REALLY IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE WITHOUT IT.

SO I THINK THAT --IN ITS BEST FORM, THE IDEA THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT FROM THE NORM CAN EXPRESS ITSELF AS GENIUS AND HELPS US TO LIVE AND BE A BIT MORE FLEXIBLE ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS INSIDE THEM BUT THEY ALSO DEMAND A LEVEL OF TOLERANCE FROM OTHER PEOPLE.

>> HELEN LEWIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.