>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

AS THE U.S.

SLASHES AID AND IMPOSES TARIFFS COULD AFRICAN NATIONS TILT TOWARDS CHINA?

I ASK THE PRESIDENT OF THE AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK.

>> THE NAZIS WANTED TO USE ART AS PROPAGANDA.

>> THE FILM MAKER CAUGHT BETWEEN HIS ARTISTIC VISION AND THE NAZIS.

I TALK TO A BEST SELLING AUTHOR ABOUT HIS NEW NOVEL "THE DIRECTOR."

AS PRESIDENT TRUMP TURNS UP THE HEAT ON UNIVERSITIES A JOURNALIST TALKS ABOUT RESISTANCE SUMMER SCHOOL, HER POPULAR NEW ONLINE COURSE.

>> MY YEARS IN JAIL I DID A WORKSHOP AND ACTUALLY FORGED MY WAY OF THINKING AND VALUES.

>> AS THE WORLD MOURNS URUGUAY'S LEADER, WE LOOK BACK ON THE MAN THAT PROUDLY CALLED HIMSELF THE POOREST PRESIDENT.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE PETER G. PETERSON FUND.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

THIS WEEK MARKETS AROUND THE WORLD BREATHED A SIGH OF RELIEF, BUT FOR HOW LONG.

CHINA AND THE U.S.

ANNOUNCED A 90-DAY PAUSE ON SKY-HIGH TARIFFS THAT ROCKED GLOBAL MARKETS.

2025 HAS BEEN AN ECONOMIC ROLLER COASTER AND FINDING ITSELF UNIQUELY IMPACTED IS AFRICA.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE AFRICA DEVELOPMENT BANK SAYS TARIFFS COULD SEND SHOCK WAVES THROUGH THE NATIONS IMPACTED, REDUCING TRADE AND INCREASING DEBT AND DEEP CUTS TO USAID ARE PUTTING MILLIONS OF AFRICANS AT RISK AS THEY LOSE ACCESS TO LIFE SAVING MEDICATION AND SUPPLIES.

COULD THE CRUCIAL RISING MARKET TILT AWAY FROM THE UNITED STATES AND TOWARDS CHINA?

I SPOKE ABOUT ALL OF THIS THE PRESIDENT OF THE AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT BANK WHICH AIMS TO REDUCE POVERTY AND IMPROVE LIVING CONDITIONS FOR EVERYONE ACROSS THE CONTINENT.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ARE COMING UP TO THE END OF YOUR SECOND TERM.

THERE IS A LOT ON YOUR PLATE WITH THE NEW ADMINISTRATION.

YOU SAID THE ONSLAUGHT OF TARIFFS WILL SEND SHOCKWAVES THROUGH AFRICAN ECONOMIES.

LAYOUT THE WORST CASE SCENARIO OF WHAT YOU MIGHT FEAR COULD HAPPEN.

>> YOU KNOW, 47 OF THE 54 AFRICAN COUNTRIES WERE AFFECTED BY THE TARIFFS.

THAT IS A LOT IN AFRICA.

THAT BASICALLY MEANS THE EXPORT REVENUE WILL FALL CLEARLY.

EXPORT REVENUES WILL FALL.

MANY OF THEM WILL HAVE A DECLINE IN THE FOREIGN RESERVES.

THE IMPLICATION HAS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS WITH THEIR DOMESTIC CURRENCY.

THOSE WILL WEAKEN.

TWO THINGS ARE GOING TO HAPPEN.

FIRST MOST OF THE COUNTRIES ARE IMPORT DEPENDANT COUNTRY.

YOU ARE GOING TO FIND THAT HIGH INFLATION IS A PROBLEM, AND THE COSTS WHICH IS ACTUALLY FOREIGN CURRENCY DEBT WILL GET WORSE.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE FINDING IN THIS SITUATION.

I FEEL THAT THE OTHER THING WE ARE GOING TO SEE IS THE ODA IS GOING DOWN.

IF THE EXPORTS TO U.S. GO DOWN, EXPORTS TO CHINA AND OTHERS GO DOWN.

THEY CAN ALSO BUY FROM YOU.

THAT WILL AFFECT IT.

I THINK THE REAL ISSUE WE MUST ASK OURSELVES IS HOW DOES AFRICA NAVIGATE ALL OF THIS.

>> I AM GOING TO JUMP IN.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THAT.

HOW DOES AFRICA NAVIGATE ALL OF THIS?

PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT A WHOPPING 50% TARIFF AND SAID THE COUNTRY WAS ONE NOBODY EVER HEARD OF.

I AM POINTING THAT OUT.

IT GOES TO THE SCATTER SHOT METHOD OF THE TARIFFS AND ACTION.

HOW DOES A CONTINENT NAVIGATE?

>> IT IS A CHALLENGE.

WHAT YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT IS THAT THERE IS NO POINT HAVING A TARIFF WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE ONE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

CLEARLY THERE HAS TO BE FLEXIBILITY IN THE DISCUSSIONS AND THE NEGOTIATIONS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THE INTEREST OF AFRICA.

THE AMOUNT OF TRADE AFRICA HAS WITH THE UNITED STATES IS $34 BILLION.

YOU KNOW, EVEN THE WHOLE ISSUE WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, AFRICA'S TRADE SURPLUS WITH THE UNITED STATES IS ONLY $7.2.

WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE IS TO HAVE FLEXIBILITIES IN THAT DISCUSSION WITH THE UNITED STATES.

WE NEED MORE TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND NOT LESS TRADE.

SECONDLY TO ALSO LOOK AT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE AFRICAN COUNTRIES TO REDUCE THE IMPACTS ON THEIR ECONOMIES AND WE HAVE THE AFRICA CONTINENTAL FREE TRADE AREA.

WE DON'T TRADE MORE WITH EXTERNAL PARTIES THAN WE DO WITH OURSELVES.

EXPANDING THE EXTERNAL MARKET WILL BE A CRITICAL PART OF WHAT AFRICA DOES.

THERE IS A LOT OF INTEREST WITH WHAT AFRICA HAS, COBALT, LITHIUM.

AFRICA HAS TO USE WHAT IT HAS TO NEGOTIATE FOR BETTER TRADE AND INVESTMENT DEAL WITH ALL PARTS OF THE WORLD.

LASTLY, JUST ONE MORE THING ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

TAKE A LOOK AT THE SITUATION WITH CHINA.

POPULATION MATTERS.

YOUR POPULATION IS A PROBLEM WHEN YOU DON'T SCALE THEM.

THAT BECOMES A PROBLEM.

I BELIEVE AFRICA SHOWS IT CAN BE ABLE TO DEVELOP CONSUMPTION SO YOU CAN TARIFF-PROOF YOURSELF TO SOME EXTENT.

>> YOU MENTIONED CHINA.

WE MENTIONED IT.

WILL CONTINENTS LIKE AFRICA AND OTHERS THAT ARE BEING HIT BY TARIFFS, WILL THEY TURN TO AN ALTERNATIVE?

YOU MAY WANT TO BE CLOSE TO THE UNITED STATES, BUT IF THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE WILL YOU MOVE TO CHINA.

SOME IN THE TRUMP ORBIT BELIEVE IT IS JUST A METHOD AND A WAY TO SORT OF GET MORE AID, YOU KNOW, A THREAT TO WAVE AROUND.

WHAT IS THE REALITY?

WE KNOW CHINA IS HEAVILY EMBEDDED IN AFRICA.

>> WELL, JUST TO BE CLEAR I DO NOT BELIEVE AFRICA WILL BE BEGGING ANYONE FOR AID.

I THINK COUNTRIES WILL HAVE TO DEVELOP OTHER WAYS.

BUT WE WILL GET TO THE ISSUE OF CHINA AND THE U.S.

THE U.S. AND CHINA ARE GREAT ALLIES OF AFRICA.

AFRICA IS NOT GOING TO ISOLATE ITSELF.

IT WANTS TO BUILD WIDER RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE REST OF THE WORLD.

YOU HAVE UNITED STATES, CHINA, EU, GULF COUNTRIES AND OTHERS.

AFRICA IS BUILDING BRIDGES AND NOT ISOLATING ITSELF.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE WHATEVER DEALS THAT ARE DONE WITH AFRICA ARE FAIR AND LED BY AFRICA AND IN AFRICA'S INTEREST AND MAKE SURE THAT AFRICA CAN CAPITALIZE AND USE WHAT IT HAS TO NEGOTIATE A BETTER DEAL FOR ITSELF.

DESPITE HAVING 20% OF GLOBAL POPULATION, COMBINED, YOU KNOW IT IS SMALLER THAN GERMANY'S ALONE.

WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO THIS RICH CONTINENT IN HUMAN AND NATURAL RESOURCES.

WHY IS IT NOT DOING BETTER.

THE QUESTION IS LOOKING AT OLD LEADERS CLINGING TO POWER, LACK OF A RULE OF LAW, POOR INFRASTRUCTURE.

YOU KNOW, THE AWARD MEANT TO HONOR A FORMER AFRICAN LEADER DEDICATED TO DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

YOU KNOW, I THINK DATA MATTERS TODAY YOU HAVE 10 OF THE 20 FASTEST ECONOMIES IN THE WORLD IN AFRICA.

STARTING WITH COVID AND ISSUES WITH RUSSIA THAT LED TO INCREASED INFLATION.

SO AFRICA IS QUITE A RESILIENT CONTINENT.

LOOK, I HAVE BEEN PRESIDENT FOR THE LAST TEN YEARS AT THE AFRICA DEVELOPMENT BANK.

I STARTED SOMETHING FEED AFRICA, INDUSTRIALIZE AFRICA AND IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF THE LIFE OF THE PEOPLE IN AFRICA.

IT HAS IMPACTED ON THE LIVES OF 565 MILLION PEOPLE.

TAKE THE CASE OF ELECTRICITY.

MYSELF AND PRESIDENT OF THE WORLD BANK LAUNCHED A JOINT PROGRAM AIMING TO LIGHT UP AFRICA, TO CONNECT 300 MILLION PEOPLE IN AFRICA TO ELECTRICITY.

WITHOUT ELECTRICITY YOU CAN'T BE COMPETITIVE IN THE DARK.

THAT IS THE THING WE ARE DOING.

I LOOK AT THE ISSUE OF FOOD.

WE HAVE DONE INCREDIBLY WELL WITH REGARD TO FOOD.

ETHIOPIA, JUST IN 2018 TO START USING HEAT TOLERANT WHEAT VARIETIES.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE.

FIRST AFRICA HAS TO GROW EXPAND THE TAXABLE BASE YOU HAVE.

YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY IS TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THE CRITICAL MINERALS.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE IT IS IN THE INTEREST OF AFRICA.

THE OTHER ONE THAT I THINK IS VERY IMPORTANT TO CONTINUE TO ACCELERATE INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE.INFRASTRUCTURE I LIKE A BACKBONE THAT YOU AND I HAVE.

WE AS A BANK INVESTED MORE THAN $55 BILLION IN INFRASTRUCTURE.

GROW YOUR DOMESTIC SAVINGS AND INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE.

DON'T EXPORT RAW MATERIALS.

IT IS THE DOOR TO POVERTY.

WHEN YOU EXPORT VALUE ADDED YOU GO ON A HIGHWAY TO WEALTH.

INDUSTRIALIZATION.

>> YEAH.

IT IS EXTRAORDINARY THAT YOU DO EXPORT ALL OF THE VERY VALUABLE MINERALS TO BE PROCESSED OUTSIDE, AND AFRICA COUNTRIES ONLY GET A BIT OF WHAT THEY ARE WORTH.

ALL OF THIS YOU SAY WILL COST MONEY AND INVESTMENT.

MANY AFRICAN COUNTRIES HAVE BEEN HEAVILY IMPACTED BY THE SUDDEN CUT IN USAID.

I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU HOW IT IS IMPACTING LIVES AND WHAT IT WILL MEAN FOR A GOVERNMENT'S ABILITY TO PAY FOR THESE THINGS AND NOW IT MIGHT HAVE TO PAY FOR THE HEALTH CARE THAT IT DID NOT BEFORE.

>> THE ERA OF AID IS GONE, COMPLETELY GONE.

THE ISSUE WITH AID IS AID IS NOT AN ASSET CLASS.

THE CRITICAL THING IS FIRST AND FOREMOST TO RECOGNIZE THAT COUNTRIES HAVE TO GROW DOMESTIC RESOURCES.

IN THE CASE OF AFRICA, YOU WANT MORE TAXES.

AND SECONDLY, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF THE DISCIPLINE OF INVESTMENT.

I WANT AFRICA TO DEVELOPMENT A DISCIPLINED INVESTMENT.

THEY HAVE SO MUCH ENERGY.

WE HAVE HYDRO POWER.

WE HAVE A MASSIVE YOUTH POPULATION THAT COULD BECOME THE LABOR FORCE OF THE WORLD.

WE HAVE A LOT OF LAND.

65% OF THE LAND LEFT IN THE WORLD TO FEED 9.5 BILLION PEOPLE IS IN AFRICA.

ESSENTIALLY WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS THAT.

HOW DO WE TURN IT INTO AN OPPORTUNITY FOR OURSELVES.

I THINK THE ISSUE OF AID SHOULD BE TURNED MORE INTO CONCESSION OF FINANCING.

IT ALLOWS INSTITUTIONS LIKE OURSELVES TO DO IT PROPERLY.

FIRST, WE CAN MOBILIZE CAPITAL.

HELP TO DEVELOP PROJECTS.

WE CAN HELP TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE PROJECTS, YOU HAVE RISK CAPITAL TO PROVIDE.

THAT IS THE WAY THAT I BELIEVE THAT WE SHOULD GO, AND ACTUALLY CHRISTIANE AT THE END OF THE DAY I THINK THAT AFRICA IS THE LARGEST GREEN FIELD OPEN FIELD IN THE WORLD.

EVERYTHING AFRICA HAS WHETHER IT IS ENERGY, WATER, IT IS AN INVESTOR'S DREAM.

YOU DEVELOP BASED ON YOUR RESOURCES.

I WANT U.S. AND AFRICA WORKING MORE TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, WE ARE VERY STRONG.

WE HAVE SOMETHING CALLED AFRICA INVESTMENT FORUM WHICH WE STARTED ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO AND IT MOBILIZED OVER $225 BILLION OF INVESTMENT INTEREST TO AFRICA.

WE ALSO HAVE THE AFRICA DEVELOPMENT FUND.

EVERY DOLLAR LEVERAGES $10.

THAT IS THE WAY TO PUT IN MONEY.

>> LOOK, YOURS IS A BEAUTIFUL AND A RICH AND A RESOURCE-FILLED COUNTRY, AND YOU SOUND LIKE YOU HAVE A LOT OF IDEAS AND OPTIMISM.

IT IS GOOD TO HEAR.

SO, AS YOU LEAVE SOON YOUR POSITION, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU CHRISTIANE.

YOU DO A GOOD JOB.

>> THANK YOU.

NEXT, AN ACCLAIMED NEW NOVEL "THE DIRECTOR" TAKES A FICTIONALIZED LOOK AT THE REAL LIFE OF ONE OF THE GREATEST FILM MAKERS OF THE SILENT ERA.

HE HELPED TO LAUNCH THE CAREER OF GRETA GARBO AND PRODUCED PICTURES LIKE PANDORA'S BOX.

THE DIRECTOR FOLLOWS HIM IN HIS MOST CONTROVERSIAL OUT BY HOLLY AUSTRIA, PABST SOON STARTED TO MAKE MOVIE FOR THE HEAD OF THE NAZI PROPAGANDA MACHINE.

THE AUTHOR DANIEL KELLMAN SAT DOWN TO DISCUSS HOW THE BOOK RESONATES TODAY.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> SO, THE BOOK IS "THE DIRECTOR."

IT IS A NOVEL.

AND THE STORY IS QUITE DRAMATIC.

IT ALSO HAPPENS TO BE TRUE.

YOU ARE TELLING THE STORY OF A MAN CALLED GW PABST.

A GERMAN.

HE ESCAPED IN THE 30s AND WENT TO HOLLYWOOD.

HE WANTED TO MAKE FILMS.

THEN, NOT TOO LONG AFTER HE WENT BACK TO MAKE MOVIES IN NAZI GERMANY.

EXPLAIN WHO HE IS AND WHAT MOVIES THAT HE ENDED UP MAKING.

>> HE WAS ONE OF THE GREAT DIRECTORS OF THE SILENT MOVIE ERA.

THE STUDIO SYSTEM TREATED HIM TERRIBLY.

THEY DIDN'T LET HIM PICK THE ACTORS OR THE SCRIPT.

HE ENDED UP GOING BACK.

THEY DIDN'T REALLY LET HIM DO HIS CRAFT IN HOLLYWOOD.

THEY WERE NOT PROPAGANDA.

THEY ARE NOT BAD FILMS.

YOU CAN STILL WATCH THEM.

YOU WON'T BE APPALLED AT ALL.

>> WAS HE UNIQUELY SINGLED OUT IN HOLLYWOOD FOR THIS TREATMENT OR WAS THAT JUST THE WAY THAT THE STUDIOS WORKED HAVING A LOT OF CONTROL OVER WHAT THE STUDIO SYSTEM DID?

>> EXACTLY.

THE DIRECTOR WAS JUST A HIRED CRAFT PERSON.

THEY WERE WHAT WE WOULD LEARN TO BE IN CHARGE OF THE WHOLE THING.

THEY WERE EXPECTED TO CREATE A UNIQUE MASTERPIECE.

YEAH.

HE THEN TRIED TO DO THAT WHEN HE WAS BACK AND WORKING FOR GIRBLES.

>> I NEED TO STOP YOU.

>> IT IS A WORD THAT SENDS CHILLS DOWN EVERYBODY'S SPINE.

YOU SAID IT WASN'T PROPAGANDA.

HOW CANNOT IT NOT BE WHEN YOU ARE WORKING FOR THE PROPAGANDA MACHINE.

HOW COULD IT NOT BE PROPAGANDA?

HOW COULD IT BE PURE ARTWORKING FOR THE NAZIS?

>> BECAUSE THE NAZIS WANTED TO USE PURE ART AS PROPAGANDA.

THAT IS A CONTRADICTORY IDEA.

I THINK IT ACTUALLY DIDN'T WORK REALLY.

THE IDEA WAS TO SHOW THE REST OF THE WORLD THEY WOULD NOT JUST RUN A DISCIPLINED, FASCIST COUNTRY BUT THEY COULD MAKE BETTER ART.

THEY WANTED THE FEW GREAT ARTISTS THAT HAD NOT ESCAPED THEM AND WERE FORCED TO WORK.

>> FORCED TO WORK.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> FORCED TO WORK MEANS THAT THE MINISTER OF PROPAGANDA EXERTED A LOT OF PRESSURE ON HIM.

HE WAS NOT A FASCIST.

HE STARTED TO GO DOWN THE LONG ROAD OF COMPROMISE.

WE SEE PEOPLE IN ALL KINDS OF ENVIRONMENTS, INCLUDING TODAY GO DOWN.

>> WE WILL TALK ABOUT TODAY IN A MOMENT.

YOU DESCRIBED PABST'S LIFE, AND NOT CLEAR WHETHER HE CONSCIOUSLY DECIDED TO RETURN TO GERMANY TO MAKE THE FILMS.

IS THERE SOME VERSION WHERE HE IS A TRAGIC VICTIM OF CIRCUMSTANCE.

THAT IS HOW HE IS PORTRAYED.

WAR BREAKS OUT.

HE IS THERE IN AUSTRIA.

HE IS LOOKING AFTER HIS SICK MOTHER.

BUT HIS WIFE, TRUDY, SHE IS NOT BUYING IT.

SHE CALLS IT THE STORY THAT YOU ARE TELLING NOW.

GIVE US YOUR SENSE OF THAT COMPLICATED, YOU KNOW, REALITY THERE.

>> HE MUST HAVE HAD THE REAL PABST.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS IN MY NOVEL.

HE MUST HAVE HAD SOME CONTACT WITH THE GERMANS AND THE MINISTER OF PROPAGANDA WHEN HE WAS IN IF HOLLYWOOD.

EVEN GOING BACK FOR A DAY INTO THE NAZI DICTATORSHIP TO VISIT YOUR MOTHER OR TO LOOK AFTER YOUR COUNTRY ESTATE, YOU KNOW THEY ARE NOT GOING TO ARREST YOU RIGHT AWAY.

THEY MUST HAVE TOLD HIM THAT.

LISTEN, YOU DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH ALL OF THIS IN HOLLYWOOD.

YOU CAN HAVE A LIFE HERE AS A DIRECTOR.

HE MUST HAVE REFUSED IT IN THE BEGINNING.

BUT STILL THERE IS A KNOWLEDGE, AND I THINK IT IS TRUE.

HE HAD THE ADVANTAGE HE COULD GO THERE AND WOULDN'T BE KILLED OR ARRESTED RIGHT AWAY.

IN THE BOOK THERE IS A SCENE.

HE IS CALLED TO MEET A NAZI MINISTER.

IS IT TRUE, AND READ A BIT OF THE PASSAGE YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO READ ABOUT THAT EVENT.

>> I WILL READ THE MESSAGE AND THEN TELL YOU WHETHER IT IS TRUE.

>> THE MINISTER LAID HIS HANDS FLAT ON THE DESK.

I'M LISTENING SAID THE MINISTER.

GO AHEAD.

YOU WANTED TO SPEAK TO ME.

I'M LISTENING.

>> YOU SENT FOR ME.

>> EXCUSE ME, I'M LISTENING.

>> HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND.

WHAT DID THE MAN MEAN?

WHAT DID HE WANT.

TO ONCE IN A LIFE THAT WAS OVER HE WOULD HAVE NEVER SPOKEN A WORD AND WHO HE WOULD HAVE CHASED OFF THE SET IF HE DARED TO SHOW UP THERE.

YOU ARE PLAYING THE INNOCENT COUNTRY BOY SAID THE MINISTER.

FINE.

HAVE IT YOUR WAY.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE SAID.

THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE NOT SAID.

PABST DID NOT UNDERSTAND.

WHAT IS SAID IS THAT YOU CAME HERE TO ME.

THE COMMUNIST DIRECTOR, THE LEFT WING HERO.

WHAT IS NOT SAID IS THAT I SENT FOR YOU.

IT IS BETTER IF YOU CAME OF YOUR OWN ACCORD.

A LITTLE BETTER FOR ME, BUT ABOVE ALL BETTER FOR YOU.

THE MINISTER LOOKED AT HIM WITH A SMILE.

SO HE ASKED.

WHAT DO YOU WANT.

>> IT IS SPOOKY AND A LITTLE ABSURD AND IT IS VERY MUCH SORT OF BACK AND FORTH.

DID IT HAPPEN?

>> YES.

IT HAPPENED.

WHAT WAS GREAT FOR ME IS THAT I IMAGINED THE SCENE.

I THOUGHT WE HAD NO SOURCE FOR THAT BUT IT MUST HAVE HAPPENED.

LATER AFTER MY BOOK WAS PUBLISHED I LEARNED THAT IN HIS FAMILY THEY ARE TELLING THE STORY ABOUT THE MEETING WITH THE MINISTER.

SO, THIS IS KNOW WHO OF THE MOMENTS WHEN YOU FEEL A LITTLE BIT VINDICATED AS A NOVELIST WHO INVENTS THINGS ON THE BASIS OF WHAT HE THINKS IS LIKELY TO HAVE HAPPENED.

>> SO YOU MUST HAVE OBVIOUSLY SEENED ED OR -- SEEN OR LOOKED SOME OF HIS FILMS.

YOU SAID HE MADE GOOD FILMS AND WERE NOT PROPAGANDA.

WHAT TYPE OF FILMS DID HE MAKE, AND DO THEY STILL HOLD UP.

WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO TELL THIS GUY WAS DOING WHAT HE WANTED WITH THE ARTISTIC FREEDOM THAT HE WANTED, OR WAS HE UNDER A CONSCIOUS OR SUBCONSCIOUS PRESSURE FROM THE HORRENDOUS REGIME?

>> BOTH.

HIS SECOND FILM WHICH HE MADE IN NAZI GERMANY IS A KIND OF STORY THE NAZIS REALLY LIKED.

IT IS COMPETENTLY DONE.

THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU SEE HIM HE IS EXAMINING A NAKED WOMAN.

IT IS A WELL ESTABLISHED SHOT.

THE BACK TO THE CAMERA.

STILL, YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU THINK IT IS A SHOT HE WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO HAVE IN A SHOT IN HOLLYWOOD.

IT IS NOT JUST GENERALLY IMMORAL TO WORK FOR THE NAZIS, IT RELIED ON FORCED LABOR.

EVERY PART OF THE WORK ON THE MOVIE SET WAS DONE, AS IN ALL GERMAN INDUSTRIES IN THE WARTIME IS BY FORCED LABORERS AND SLAVE WORKERS.

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT IT IS WRONG.

IT IS FASCINATING BECAUSE IT ASKS THE QUESTION OF HOW FAR DO YOU GO IN COMPROMISING FOR WHAT YOU THINK IS YOUR ARTISTIC VISION.

>> WAS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU PARTICULARLY?

YOU KNOW, FOR YOU IT IS NOT SO PERSONAL.

IT IS JUST HISTORY.

YOUR FATHER SURVIVED IN AUSTRIA.

HOW DID HE SURVIVE.

DOES HIS LIFE AND STORY FORM WHAT YOU ARE WRITING NOW?

>> HE WAS A DIRECTOR AFTER THE WAR.

THAT FORMED THE FACT THAT I SPENT A LOT OF MY CHILDHOOD AND TIME IN MOVIE SETS.

HE SURVIVED.

HE WAS 17.

HE WAS BORN IN 1927.

17 HE WAS SENT TO A CONCENTRATION CAMP.

NOT AN EXTERMINATION CAMP, BUT A LABOR CAMP.

YOUR CHANCES OF GETTING OUT OF THEIR ALIVE WERE NOT GOOD.

HE DID SURVIVE.

HE WAS NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT DID NOT WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT BECAUSE THEY WERE TRAUMATIZED.

HE WAS TRAUMATIZED BUT HE TALKED ABOUT IT A LOT.

I FELT ONE DAY I WILL WRITE ABOUT NAZI GERMANY.

NOW WITH THE STRANGE STORY OF THE DIRECTOR WHO IS EXILED AND DECIDES NOT TO BE IN EXILE AND GOES BACK IN HELL.

I HAVE DONE THAT.

I HAVE WRITTEN MY BOOK ABOUT THE NAZIS AND THE DIRECTOR.

>> I DON'T KNOW IF YOUR FATHER IS STILL ALIVE, BUT WOULD HE HAVE APPROVED YOU OF WRITING THE NOVEL?

DID HE THINK PABST WAS COMPROMISED?

>> HE DIED IN 2005 AND DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT NOVEL.

HE WOULD CERTAINLY HAVE THOUGHT THAT HE WAS COMPROMISED.

BUT HE WOULD ALSO HAVE THOUGHT IT IS STILL WORTH LOOKING AT THE MOVIES, BUT HE WOULD NOT HAVE THOUGHT IT IS COOL TO WORK FOR THE NAZIS IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM.

>> FINALLY YOU HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THE THREAT TO FREE SPEECH IN AMERICA TODAY.

YOU ARE LIVING IN THE UNITED STATES.

YOU LIVE IN NEW YORK.

YOU KNOW, YOU SAID TO THE "NEW YORK TIMES" FOR US VISA AND GREEN CARD HOLDERS FREE SPEECH IS PRACTICALLY SUSPENDED.

WHAT IS IT LIKE BEING A VISA HOLDER IN THE U.S. NOW?

>> IT IS VERY STRANGE.

YOU FEEL THIS CAN END ANY MOMENT IF YOU SAY SOMETHING WRONG.

IF I SAY SOMETHING WRONG TO YOU.

I WILL SAY WHATEVER I WANT TO SAY.

I CAN GO BACK TO GERMANY.

THE LIFE OF THE AMERICAN LIFE OF ANY VISA OR GREEN CARD HOLDER IS UNSTABLE NOW.

WHENEVER WE LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND COME BACK WE ARE IN DANGER OF BEING HARASSED FOR SOMETHING WE SAID IN THE MEDIA OR SOCIAL MEDIA AND THIS IS STILL PRIVILEGED SITUATION TO BE IN.

AT THE SAME TIME YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE SO-CALLED UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS BEING DISAPPEARED FROM THE STREETS.

WHAT YOU HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES NOW IS A DICTATORSHIP.

SOME PEOPLE FEEL FREE AND FINE AND OTHERS HAVE TO BE CAREFUL LIKE THE HANDLEDS OF THOUSANDS OF VISA HOLDERS AND OTHER PEOPLE HIDING IN APARTMENTS BECAUSE THEY ARE DISAPPEARED AND ARE SENT TO CONCENTRATION CAMPS IN EL SALVADOR AS THE GOVERNMENT SAYS FOREVER.

>> REALLY CAUTIONARY TALE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THIS WEEK THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ESCALATEDS IT WAR WITH HARVARD, CUTTING ANOTHER $450 MILLION IN GRANTS TO THE PRESTIGIOUS UNIVERSITY.

THAT IS ON TOP OF THE $2.2 BILLION ALREADY FROZEN.

IT IS PART OF A GROWING POLITICAL PRESSURE ON HIGHER EDUCATION.

SHE TELLS US WHY SHE HAS TAKEN THE COURSE ONLINE NOW, CREATING THE RESISTANCE SUMMER SCHOOL.

IT COVERS HOW SOME EDUCATORS ARE REIMAGINING THE FUTURE OF HIGHER EDUCATION.

>> THANKS.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ARE AN AWARD-WINNING COLUMNIST.

"WASHINGTON POST" GLOBAL OPINIONS EDITOR.

CREATED AN ONLINE COURSE AFTER COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY DECLINED.

WE WILL TALK ABOUT THAT.

DECLINED TO REPEAT A COURSE YOU TAUGHT IN THE SPRING OF 2024.

YOU SAID YOU NEVER HAD A COURSE LIKE THAT YOURSELF WHEN YOU WERE IN GRAD SCHOOL.

TELL ME ABOUT THE COURSE.

>> I DECIDED TO CREATE A COURSE CALLED RACE JOURNALISM.

JOURNALISM OR MEDIA AND INTERNATIONAL AFFAIRS.

LOOKING AT THE INTERSECTION OF RACE AND HOW RACE IS CONSTRUCTED AND HOW IDENTITY IS CONSTRUCTED AND HOW WE SEE THE WORLD AND SEE OURSELVES.

I AM SAYING THIS IS A PROCESS IN JOURNALISM, IN HOLLYWOOD, THE STORIES THAT WE TELL ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE DRIVES AND REINFORCES POLICY.

WHETHER IT IS PUBLIC HEALTH OR REFUGEES OR EVEN GOING TO WAR.

I THINK THAT FOR ME AS SOMEONE THAT WORKS IN THE MEDIA AND HAS AN EXPERIENCE IN LIVING AND WORKING AND REPORTING FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD.

IT WAS REALLY AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING ALL OF THAT TOGETHER AND, YOU KNOW, SADLY THERE IS NOT A WHOLE LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE, NON-WHITE PEOPLE THAT ARE ALLOWED TO BE EXPERTS ON THE WORLD.

>> THE COURSE WAS FULLY SUBSCRIBED, YOU KNOW WHEN YOU HAD FOUND OUT IT WOULD NOT BE RENEWED WHAT DID THEY SAY TO YOU?

>> I WAS TOLD THE DEAN WOULD NOT BE RENEWING MY FUNDING.

>> WERE YOU GIVEN A REASON?

>> NOT MUCH, NO.

I WOULD STILL LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THE DECISION WAS ABOUT.

I STILL DON'T HAVE CLARITY ON THAT.

IT WAS HEARTBREAKING AND FRUSTRATING.

I WAS CRUSHED.

THE DREAM TO TEACH AND THE CHANCE TO GIVE BACK.

BUT THERE WERE ALREADY STUDENTS APPROACHING ME FROM THE PREVIOUS YEAR SAYING THEY WERE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE COURSE.

MY HEART WAS BREAKING FOR STUDENTS WHO, AGAIN, SAID THEY FELT LIKE THEY NEEDED THIS COURSE TO BE A PART OF THEIR EDUCATION, AND I WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE IT TO THEM.

>> YOU WROTE ABOUT THIS IN ANNOUNCING THE ASSISTED SUMMER SCHOOL.

YOU THOUGHT ACTUALLY I AM GOING TO -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RIGHT WORD IS.

OPEN SOURCE OR OPEN TO THE PUBLIC.

OPEN TO ANYBODY THAT WANTED TO PARTICIPATE.

IT IS NOT FREE, BUT IT IS AVAILABLE FOR PEOPLE.

YOU HAD AN INTERESTING FUNDING MODEL.

YOU OFFERED PEOPLE A SLIDING SCALE.

THE COURSE SOLD OUT IN 48 HOURS.

>> YEAH.

>> AS I UNDERSTAND IT FROM THE SITE YOU HAD 500 SLOTS FOR THE COURSE.

YOU GOT AWAIT ING LIST OF 600 PEOPLE?

>> 2,000 NOW.

>> I AM GUESSING A LITTLE BIT POPULAR.

>> YEAH.

>> YOU SAID YOU WERE CRUSHED WHEN THE COURSE WOULDN'T BE RENEWED AT COLUMBIA.

YOU SAID I AM GOING TO MAKE IT AVAILABLE BEYOND THIS ENVIRONMENT.

WHAT GAVE YOU THE IDEA?

>> WATCHING WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING POLITICALLY.

WATCHING WHAT IS HAPPENING AT COLUMBIA'S CAMPUS, IN TERMS OF TRUMP'S DEMANDS OVER DEI AND OVER, YOU KNOW, PARTICULARLY I THINK FOR ME SEEING COLUMBIA'S WILLINGNESS TO PUT THE DEPARTMENTS OF AFRICAN STUDIES AND SOUTH ASIAN STUDIES UNDER A SPECIAL RECEIVERSHIP MADE ME THINK THAT I HAVE THIS COURSE AND WORK AND LABOR I HAVE DONE FOR COLUMBIA AND WHY SHOULD IT BE HELD HOSTAGE BY AN INSTITUTION THAT IS CAVING ONES IT OWN VALUES ON EDUCATION.

I FELT LIKE I NEEDED TO LIBERATE MY WORK, AND AS A PERSON SEEING WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH WHAT I WILL ARGUE IS SEGREGATION, TEACHING ABOUT RACE AND HISTORY.

I KNEW WHAT I WAS TEACHING ABOUT WAS GOING TO BE POSSIBLY TARGETED.

I JUST WANTED TO FREE AT LEAST MYSELF AND THAT SUBJECT MATTER, AND TO AN EXTENT THE STUDENTS FROM INSTITUTIONAL COWARDICE, RIGHT.

I FEEL POWERLESS SOMETIMES WATCHING THE NEWS.

FEELING ANGRY THAT INSTITUTIONS WERE CAVING.

WHAT SKILLS DO I HAVE?

I HAVE A COURSE AND SYLLABUS.

LET ME DUST IT OFF AND BRING IT OUT OF THE CLOSET AND SEE IF ANYONE WANTS TO HAVE IT.

>> COLUMBIA IS NOT ACKNOWLEDGING THEY ARE SEEDING TO THAT, BUT MORE THAN 50 UNIVERSITIES ARE BEING INVESTIGATED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AS PART OF THEIR EXPLICIT CAMPAIGN AGAINST DEI, DIVERSITY E EQUITY AND INCLUSION STRATEGIES.

THEIR ARGUMENT IS THAT UNIVERSITIES IN GENERAL AND COLUMBIA IN PARTICULAR DID NOT DO ENOUGH TO PROTECT STUDENTS FROM THE ANTI-SEMITIC OVERTONE OF THE PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTS IN THAT SPRING.

IN MARCH 2025 THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION DEMANDED COLUMBIA PLACE MIDDLE EASTERN, SOUTH ASIAN AND AFRICAN DEPARTMENTS UNDER -- FOR A MINIMUM OF FIVE YEARS.

COLUMBIA RESPONDED ON MARCH 21st.

THEY DIDN'T REFER TO THE RECEIVERSHIP BUT APPOINTED A NEW SENIOR ADMINISTRATOR TO ENSURE PROGRAMS ARE BALANCED.

I SAY ALL OF THAT TO SAY DO YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CLASS PER SE AS PART OF THAT?

DO YOU THINK THAT IT WAS RELATED TO THAT?

>> WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING WITH COLLEGES AND COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY, PERSONALLY I WOULD ARGUE WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED IF THESE COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES AND CORPORATIONS WERE SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR COMMITMENTS TO DIVERSITY.

SINCE THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER AND BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS WE SAW SO MUCH ENERGY AND OPPORTUNITY AND PROMISES ABOUT DIVERSITY AND RECTIFYING THE WRONGS OF THE PAST.

FAST FORWARD TO FIVE YEARS LATER, WE HAVE SEEN HOW OKAY, THESE INSTITUTIONS WERE LIKE THEIR RACIAL JUSTICE SUMMER WAS OVER AND GOING BACK TO THE STATUS QUO.

TRUMP TARGETING THESE SO-CALLED WOKE PROGRAMS.

WHETHER IT IS HOLLYWOOD, JOURNALISM.

WE SAW A LOT OF THE PROMISES BE ROLLED BACK AND PULLED BACK.

YOU KNOW, MY COURSE WAS CANCELLED LAST YEAR BEFORE TRUMP TOOK OFFICE.

I DEFINITELY SEE IT AS THERE IS ALREADY A NON-COMMITMENT.

I THINK IT FEELS PAINFULLY EVIDENT THAT THE COMMITMENTS TO DIVERSITY WERE NOT MUCH MORE THAN BRANDING AND MARKETING TO CAPTURE, YOU KNOW, A MOMENT IN THE POST-GEORGE FLOYD ERA.

>> AS YOU WOULD IMAGINE, BECAUSE WE ARE JOURNALISTS, CALLED COLUMBIA TO GET THEIR TAKE ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR CLASS.

THEY SENT US A STATEMENT.

IT SAYS KAREN TAUGHT AS AN ADJUNCT PROFESSOR DURING THE SPRING 2024 PROFESSOR AND WAS FUNDED AND COMMISSIONED FOR THAT TERM AND WAS INVITED TO RETURN TO TEACH THE SAME COURSE IN THE SPRING OF 2025 SEMESTER BUT SHE DECLINED.

SHE HAS BEEN OFFERED THE SAME OPPORTUNITY TO TEACH THE SAME COURSE IN 2026 AT COLUMBIA WHICH SHE HASN'T YET ACCEPTED AND SAID IT WAS A PRIVILEGE TO HAVE HER TEACH OUR STUDENTS.

THEY ARE SAYING THEY INVITED YOU BACK.

>> I WILL START BY WORKING BACKWARDS.

THE SECOND PART OF THE STATEMENT SAID COLUMBIA INVITED ME BACK.

THOUGHTS WOULD I BE GOING TO THE JOURNALISM SCHOOL OR PLACED SOMEWHERE.

I FIND IT INTERESTING THE WORK AROUND WAS OFFERED LAST YEAR ONLY AFTER THE COURSE WENT VIRAL IN TERMS OF ME DOING THAT.

>> JUST TO CLARIFY, YOU ARE SAYING THE INVITATION TO TEACH IN THE SPRING OF 2026 WAS ONLY OFFERED AFTER YOU MADE IT CLEAR YOU WERE TEACHING THE COURSE PUBLICLY.

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT ABOUT SAYINGURE WERE INVITED BACK FOR 2025.

>> AGAIN, THE OFFER THAT CAME THROUGH NOT -- THIS HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH HAVING A VENDETTA AGAINST COLUMBIA.

COLUMBIA SHAPED ME.

I WOULD NOT BE HERE IF NOT FOR COLUMBIA.

AS A PERSON AND SOMEONE CARING ABOUT THE SUBJECT MATTER.

I WANT TO BE AS FREE AS POSSIBLE TO BE ABLE TO TEACH IN THE WAY THAT I WANT TO TEACH, AND NOT WITH THE FEAR THAT AT ANY MOMENT THE AX COULD COME AGAIN AS THE POLITICAL CLIMATES CHANGE.

>> YOU SAID THAT IN YOUR PIECE THAT I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUTURE WILL LOOK LIKE AFTER ALL OF THIS.

I AM BOTH GRATEFUL TO COLUMBIA FOR HOW IT SHAPED ME AND GRIEVING WHAT FEELS LIKE THE LOSS OF THE INSTITUTIONAL HOME THAT I KNEW AND LOVED.

I DO KNOW IN A MOMENT OF PROFOUND CRISIS WE CANNOT WAIT FOR ELITE PERMISSION OR INSTITUTIONAL APPROVAL TO SHARE KNOWLEDGE AND CREATE LEARNING COMMUNITIES.

SAY MORE ABOUT WHY YOU FEEL LIKE IT IS NECESSARY IN THIS MOMENT.

>> I THINK I WAS OVERCOME.

I AM STILL AT THE "WASHINGTON POST" IN THIS ELITE INSTITUTION.

IT FELT LIKE AN URGENCY OF THE MOMENT.

WHETHER IT IS BLACK OR JEWISH PROFESSORS CAST OUT BY WHITE INSTITUTIONS, AND SETTING UP THEIR OWN TEACHING MECHANISMS.

YOU KNOW WHAT, WE ARE GOING TO SET UP SCHOOLS IN APARTMENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY BECAUSE THE LEARNING DOES NOT NEED TO STOP BECAUSE THE POWERS SAY THAT IT SHOULD.

FOR ADJUNCTS THAT ARE SCRAPING BY ON A FEW THOUSAND PER COURSE, LIVING ON NO BENEFITS, NO INSTITUTIONAL PROTECTIONS AND THEN ON THE FLIP SIDE STUDENTS WHO ARE PAYING $25,000 PER SEMESTER TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE KNOWLEDGE.

FOR ME JUST KNOWING THE SPEED AT WHICH THESE PURGINGS ARE HAPPENING AROUND THE COUNTRY.

I FELT LIKE, OKAY, DID IT MAKE SENSE TO WAIT YOUR TURN?

>> I WANT TO PUSH FORWARD.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAW WHAT HAPPENED AT COLUMBIA AND OTHER UNIVERSITIES.

EVEN THOSE SYMPATHETIC AND IN AGREEMENT WITH SOME OF THE MESSAGES AROUND PALESTINE AND THE WAR IN GAZA FOUND THE BEHAVIOR OF SOME OF THE PEOPLE ON CAMPUS OBJECTIONABLE.

DO YOU THINK THAT IS FAIR?

IT WAS A LEARNING LESSON IN REAL TIME FOR MY STUDENTS.

I TEACH ON MASS MEDIA REPORTING ON PROTESTS.

I SPENT TIME IN THE ENCAMPMENTS AND ON THE OUTSIDE.

NOT ONLY DID I SEE AND MY STUDENTS AS WELL.

ALL OF US TALKED ABOUT THIS.

WE WERE JEWISH, MUSLIM, CHRISTIAN.

NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL, THE IMAGE ON THE OUTSIDE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AT COLUMBIA WAS WILD LIE MANIPULATED AND MISSTATED.

ONE THING THAT TOUCHED ME ABOUT THE ENCAMPMENT IS THAT I SAW THE STUDENTS THAT WERE HIGHLY SO FEST INDICATED.

THESE ARE LITTLE TOWNS ALMOST.

THEY HAD LIBRARIES.

THEY HAD FIRST AID CARE.

THEY HAD FOOD THAT WAS COMING IN.

I THINK THAT FOR ME AMIDst THE CONTROVERSIES, COLUMBIA GAVE ME A LIVING EXAMPLE OF EVEN WHAT I AM DOING RIGHT NOW.

RIGHT.

THAT DESPITE CLASHES OVER POLITICS AND DESTRUCTION THAT IT IS POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO ORGANIZE AND FOR LEARNING TO STILL GO ON AND FOR PROFESSORS TO BE DONATING THEIR TIME FREELY TO THE COMMUNITY, RIGHT.

SO, TO ME IT IS LIKE THAT IS ALSO THE LESSON FROM THE PROTEST.

AND WE SAW THAT DESPITE WHAT ONE MIGHT THINK ABOUT THE CHANCE AND THE BEHAVIOR, THE LARGER QUESTION IS BRINGING IN A MILITARIZED NYPD FORCE TO OCCUPY THE CAMPUS AND CREATE IT INTO A WAR ZONE, RIGHT.

IS THAT OKAY?

BROADLY, THIS WAR WE ARE HAVING OVER TEACHING HISTORY AND BLACK PEOPLE HAVING POSITIONS OF INFLUENCE AND POWER.

I JUST FEEL LIKE I AM TRYING TO DO WHAT I SAW THERE.

THAT IS JUST GATHERING PEOPLE.

AND THAT WE WILL STILL LEARN ANYWAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

I WILL BE INTERESTED TO HEAR AFTER YOUR SUMMER SCHOOL HOW IT ALL TURNED OUT.

THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> FINALLY, REMEMBERING A LEADER WHO STOOD OUT IN THE WORD OF COUNTERPARTS FOR HIS MODEST LIFE.

THIS WEEK THE FORMER PRESIDENT OF URUGUAY, JOSE MUJICA DIEDA AT THE AGE OF 889.

A FORMER GUERRILLA FIGHTER HE WAS IMPRISONED.

HE ROSE TO LEAD THE COUNTRY BETWEEN 2010 TO 2015 AND WAS POPULAR AROUND THE WORLD FOR HIS HUMBLE LIFESTYLE.

I SPOKE WITH MUJICA IN 2014 AS HE MET HIS THEN COUNTERPART PRESIDENT BARAK OBAMA.

HE TOLD ME OF HIS EXTRAORDINARY STORY AND WHY HE WAS DRIVEN TO LAYOUT HIS AMBITIOUS POLICIES LIKE A BATTLE AGAINST BIG TOBACCO.

>> YOU CAPTURED THE WORLD'S IMAGINATION.

YOU ARE KNOWN AS THE WORLD'S POOREST PRESIDENT.

IN FACT YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE IN YOUR ORIGINAL RESIDENCE AND WON'T LIVE INSIDE THE PRESIDENTIAL PALACE.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT IT IS THAT MOTIVATES YOU AND HOW YOUR 14 YEARS IN JAIL AFFECTS THE WAY THAT YOU LIVE TODAY.

>> Translator: MY YEARS IN JAIL I DID A WORKSHOP THAT FORGED MY WAY OF THINKING AND VALUES.

I AM NOT A POOR PRESIDENT.

POOR ARE THE PEOPLE THAT NEED A LOT.

SENECA SAID THAT.

I DO NOT NEED MUCH TO LIVE.

I LIVE IN THE SAME WAY I LIVED WHEN I WAS NOT THE PRESIDENT.

THE SAME HOUSE AND IN THE SAME WAY, AND I AM A REPUBLICAN.

I LIVE LIKE THE MAJORITY IN MY COUNTRY LIVES.

IT WAS A MAJORITY THAT VOTED FOR ME.

THAT IS WHY I IDENTIFY WITH THEM.

MORALLY, I DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO LIVE LIKE A MAJORITY.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE A LOT OF MONEY.

THEY SHOULDN'T GO IN TO POLITICS.

THAT IS MY WAY OF SEEING IT.

I AM NOT IMPROVISING.

I DON'T DO MARKETING.

THIS IS MY PHILOSOPHY.

>> HOW LONG DID YOU SPEND IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT?

HOW DID YOU MANAGE TO SURVIVE THAT?

>> BECAUSE HUMAN BEINGS ARE STRONG.

WE CAN TRIP AND FALL BUT CAN STAND UP AND START A NEW.

WE HAVE IT INSIDE OF OURSELVES.

WE SHOULD NOT BLAME OTHERS.

WE HAVE TO LOOK INSIDE OF OURSELVES FOR THAT STRENGTH.

NATURE HAS GIVEN US ALL THAT WE NEED.

THE ONES THAT FAIL ARE THE ONES THAT STOP FIGHTING.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAME TO ASK PRESIDENT OBAMA.

WE HAVE A FIGHT AGAINST TOBACCO.

8 MILLION PEOPLE DIE A YEAR BY SMOKING.

A LOT MORE THAN THE PEOPLE THAT DIE AT WARS.

>> PHILLIP MORRIS IS SUING URUGUAY BECAUSE OF ACTIONS AGAINST SMOKING AND TOBACCO.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> I SAID IT ALREADY.

IT IS NOT ABOUT COMPANIES.

IT IS NOT ABOUT SUING.

I AM JUST ASKING WE DO HAVE TO REALLY FIGHT AGAINST THIS.

LIFE IS WORTH EVERYTHING.

WE HAVE TO FIGHT FOR IT.

BEING ALIVE IS A MIRACLE.

I WILL REALLY INSIST EVERY DAY.

THAT IS WHY THIS BATTLE AGAINST TOBACCO AND OTHER BATTLES FOR LIFE.

I WILL ALWAYS FIGHT FOR THEM.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU FINALLY TO EXPLAIN HOW YOU SURVIVED WHAT YOU DID TO GET THROUGH TEN YEARS IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.

I READ THAT YOU INTERACTED WITH THE INSECTS AND BEFRIENDED THE RATS IN YOUR CAGE.

>> IF YOU CATCH A BLACK ANT, A NORMAL, COMMON ANT, YOU GRAB IT WITH TWO FINGERS AND PUT HER INSIDE YOUR EAR YOU WILL HEAR IT SCREAM.

BUT YOU NEED TIME TO DO THAT AND YOU NEED TO BE REALLY LONELY.

WHEN YOU SPEND A LONG TIME BY YOURSELF, A FROG, A RAT THAT COMES TO EAT BECAUSE YOU LEFT CRUMBS THERE.

IT IS LIFE.

IT IS THE LIFE THAT YOU HAVE THERE.

PROBABLY NOTHING WORSE THAN LONELINESS AFTER DEATH.

WE NEVER SAVE OURSELVES ALONE.

WE ALWAYS SAVE OURSELVES WITH THE OTHERS.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT WE FORGET TOO OFTEN.

>> THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE PROGRAM EVERY NIGHT SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.