>> NOW, IN TIMES OF WAR, CRISIS, AND DISASTER, IT CAN BE HARD TO FIND ANY OPTIMISM, BUT OUR NEXT GUEST URGES US NOT TO GIVE UP.

AUTHOR LIZZIE WADE'S NEW BOOK "APOCALYPSE" RETRACES HUMAN HISTORY, REFLECTING ON HUMAN RESILIENCE AND THE ABILITY TO REBUILD AFTER EXPERIENCING CATASTROPHE.

FROM THE BLACK PLAGUE TO THE COVID PANDEMIC, SHE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN THAT DESPITE THE PAIN AND DESTRUCTION, THERE ARE VALUABLE LESSONS TO BE LEARNED FROM THIS HISTORY.

>> LIZZIE WADE, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "APOCALYPSE. "

YOU START IT BY SAYING, LIFE IN THE 2020s IS NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART.

IT FEELS LIKE HISTORY SUDDENLY SPED UP, LEAVING US SCRAMBLING FOR A FOOTHOLD, BUT YOU'RE ACTUALLY KIND OF OPTIMISTIC.

WHAT'S THE SILVER LINING HERE?

>> YEAH, I THINK THE SILVER LINING FOR ME RESEARCHING THIS BOOK, AND ONE OF THE REASONS I WANTED TO WRITE IT IS BECAUSE HOWEVER SCARED I AM OF WHAT WE'RE FACING IN THE WORLD TODAY, I FOUND IT REALLY HEARTENING AND ENCOURAGING THAT SO MANY OF OUR ANCESTORS EXPERIENCED VERY SIMILAR THINGS, AND NOT ONLY EXPERIENCED THEM, BUT ADAPTED TO THEM, SURVIVED THEM, AND SOMETIMES EVEN CAME OUT BETTER ON THE OTHER SIDE.

>> YEAH, THAT'S REALLY FASCINATING.

I MEAN, I NEVER THOUGHT --PROBABLY LIKE MOST PEOPLE, WHEN I HEAR THE WORD APOCALYPSE, I THINK OF THIS DISASTER, THAT IT'S SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE DON'T RECOVER FROM, THAT WAS UNEXPECTED, BUT YOU ACTUALLY REALLY TAKE THE TIME TO BREAK DOWN THAT THERE'S DIFFERENT, FIRST OF ALL, TIMES OF APOCALYPSES THAT CAN BE CAUSED BY, YOU KNOW, NATURAL EVENTS, HUMAN-MADE EVENTS, POLITICAL EVENTS, ALL KINDS OF REASONS.

WAS THERE A THROUGH-LINE ON WHAT MADE SOCIETIES SUCCESSFULLY COME OUT OF IT?

>> YEAH, I THINK --WHEN I WAS TRYING TO DECIDE ON A TERM FOR THIS BOOK, I WANTED KIND OF A TERM THAT WOULD ENCOMPASS, JUST AS YOU SAY, MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF EVENTS, NOT JUST A LIMITED NATURAL DISASTER, BUT SOMETHING MORE LONG LASTING AND TRANSFORMATIVE, AND THAT WAS THE KEY WORD FOR ME, A TRANSFORMATION.

IF A SOCIETY THAT WENT INTO ONE OF THESE EVENTS WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE SOCIETY THAT CAME OUT OF IT, THAT FOR ME COUNTED AS AN APOCALYPSE.

>> AND YOU POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT REACTIONS, AND WE CAN'T NECESSARILY PREDICT HOW A SOCIETY IS TRANSFORMED.

YOU KIND OF JUXTAPOSED A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES, ONE IN THE INDIS VALLEY, TELL US WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

AND YOU KIND OF COMPARE THAT TO EUROPE AND THE BLACK DEATH.

TELL US.

>> YEAH, SO, HARAPA WAS A SOCIETY THAT BEGAN TO COLLAPSE AROUND 4,200 YEARS AGO AND EXISTED ABOUT 800 YEARS BEFORE THAT.

IT WAS PART OF A LARGER INDIS VALLEY CIVILIZATION.

WHEN ARCHAEOLOGISTS STUDY NOT ONLY HOW THE CITY WAS LAID OUT AND ORGANIZED, BUT ALSO THE SKELETONS OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BURIED THERE, THEY FIND THAT HARAPA AT ITS HEIGHT WAS VERY COSMOPOLITAN, AND VERY EGALITARIAN, LIKE, THERE'S NO IMAGES OF A KING, THERE'S NO PALACES, THE GRANDEST ARCHITECTURE AND THE MOST SORT OF INVESTMENT IN TIME AND RESOURCES SEEMS TO GO INTO PUBLIC SPACES, THAT MANY DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE COULD USE.

AND WE KNOW FROM HOW THE, YOU KNOW, HOW GOODS WERE MOVING AROUND, TRADE ROUTES AND ALSO THE ISOTOPES OF THE PEOPLE BURIED THERE, YOU CAN SEE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, GREW UP SOMEWHERE ELSE AND CAME TO HARAPA LATER IN LIFE AND FORMED THAT SOCIETY AND DYING THERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, AROUND 4,200 YEARS AGO, THERE'S --THE MONSOON CYCLE GETS DISRUPTED, SO, IT'S SORT OF EQUIVALENT TO A DROUGHT.

BUT THIS CLIMATE CHANGE MADE THINGS REALLY UNPREDICTABLE IN WAYS THAT THEY HAD NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE, AND WHAT WE SEE IN HARAPA IS A REAL INCREASE IN INEQUALITY, PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO BE LIVING OUTSIDE OF THE CITY'S WALLS START TO BECOME MUCH SICKER, SUFFER POSSIBLY VIOLENT DEATHS.

THE PEOPLE LIVING IN HARAPA AFTER THIS --AFTER MOST PEOPLE HAVE LEFT, ALSO ARE SICKER, SEEM TO EXPERIENCE MORE VIOLENCE THROUGHOUT THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK FOR ME, THAT WAS PART OF SHOWING THAT, LIKE, APOCALYPSES REALLY COME FOR SOCIETY'S WEAK POINTS, SO PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, AS E GAL GALITARIAN AS IT WAS, THERE WAS PROBABLY SOCIAL DIVISIONS THAT KIND OF GET SMOOTHED OUT IN --LIKE HOW ARCHAEOLOGISTS CAN SEE IT TODAY, AND, YOU KNOW, APOCALYPSES REALLY AMPLIFIED, OR PERHAPS CREATED, THOSE SOCIAL TENSIONS, THAT WERE GOING INTO IT.

AND IN THE BLACK DEATH, SOMETHING SORT OF DIFFERENT HAPPENED, WHICH IS, IN EUROPE, YOU KNOW, THIS HORRIFYING DISEASE SWEPT THROUGH AND KILLED POTENTIALLY OVER HALF OF ALL PEOPLE IN THE MATTER OF FOUR OR FIVE YEARS, AND WHEN YOU'RE COMING OUT OF THAT, IT ACTUALLY SEEMS TO INCREASE EQUALITY AND DECREASE INEQUALITY IN WHAT HAD BEEN A VERY, VERY, VERY UNEQUAL SOCIETY.

SO, WITH FEWER WORKERS AVAILABLE LIVING TO KEEP THESE, YOU KNOW, KEEP THE FARMS RUNNING, KEEP THE MANOR HOUSES RUNNING, DO THE ESSENTIAL LABOR OF SOCIETY, THESE WORKERS HAD A LOT MORE --A LOT MORE AGENCY, A LOT MORE DECISION- MAKING OVER THEIR LIVES, A LOT MORE BARGAINING POWER IN WAYS THAT WE WOULD THINK ABOUT IT TODAY.

OF COURSE, THEY HAD DIFFERENT VOCABULARY FOR THESE THINGS AND HOW THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT LIVING THEIR LIVES.

BUT YOU CAN SEE, IN THE ELITE WRITING AROUND THIS TIME, AS WELL AS THE -- THE BONES OF THE PEOPLE WHO DIED AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, THAT IT SEEMS LIKE THE POORER CLASSES, THE WORKING CLASSES, WERE MUCH HEALTHIER AFTER THIS PLAGUE.

>> YOU KNOW, WHAT'S INTERESTING ABOUT THE BOOK IS, YOU HAVE THESE KIND OF SCENES WHERE YOU PAINT LIFE IN THESE SOCIETIES, AND, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THESE ARE COMPOSITE CHARACTERS, YOU WEREN'T ABLE TO INTERVIEW SOMEBODY 4,000 YEARS AGO, BUT YOU BASE THIS ON RESEARCH FROM SCIENCE THAT'S AVAILABLE TODAY, AND THAT WAS REALLY FASCINATING TO ME.

I HAD NO IDEA THAT ARCHAEOLOGY HAS ADVANCED TO THIS LEVEL, OR CLIMATE SCIENCE, OR ALL THE DIFFERENT KIND OF FIELDS, AND HOW SPECIFIC WE CAN GET TO FIGURING OUT WHAT LIFE WAS LIKE FOR A PARTICULAR PERSON WHOSE BONES OR DNA WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO SEE TODAY.

>> YEAH, ARCHAEOLOGY HAS COME BY LEEPS LEAPS AND BOUNDS IN THE LAST FEW DECADES, BOTH IN TERMS OF THE SCIENTIFIC TECHNIQUES AVAILABLE, TO ARCHAEOLOGISTS AND SORT OF ALSO IN THE FRAMEWORKS THEY USE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY WANT TO LEARN, WHAT --WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT A PAST SOCIETY, WHAT KINDS OF QUESTIONS THEY CAN ASK AND WANT TO ANSWER, SO, YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED THE STUDY OF ISOTOPES.

SO, WHEN YOU DRINK WATER IN A CERTAIN LOCATION, YOU KNOW, THE KIND OF CHEMICALS, THE MINERALS IN THE WATER BECOME STORED IN YOUR TEETH, AND WHEN, AS A CHILD, WHEN YOUR TEETH ARE GROWING, SO, IF YOU CAN COMPARE THE SIGNATURE IN A PERSON'S TEETH TO THE PLACE, THE GEOLOGICAL SIGNATURE OF THE PLACE WHERE THEY DIED, YOU CAN SEE IF A PERSON MIGRATED THROUGHOUT THEIR LIFE.

AND I THINK THAT'S JUST SO FASCINATING, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, THAT THE QUESTIONS THAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS WANT TO ANSWER HAVE REALLY EXPANDED BEYOND, YOU KNOW, WHO WAS THE KING OF THIS SOCIETY AND WHAT GREAT STUFF CAN WE FIND IN HIS TOMB, TO MUCH MORE, WHO WERE THE REGULAR PEOPLE, WHAT WERE THEIR LIVES LIKE?

HOW ARE THEY AFFECTED BY AND INTERACTING WITH THEIR ENVIRONMENT, WITH THE POLITICAL STRUCTURE OF THEIR SOCIETY?

AND WHEN IT COMES TO APOCALYPSES, HOW THEY RECOVERED AFTERWARDS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT KIND OF SOCIAL TRANSFORMATIONS, AND YOU HIGHLIGHTED ONE THAT HAPPENED IN NORTHERN PERU.

TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

>> YES, IN NORTHERN PERU, AROUND 5,800 YEARS AGO OR SO, EL NINO SUDDENLY STARTED HAPPENING.

SO, EL NINO, YOU KNOW, WE ALL KNOW IT TODAY, IT'S THIS PHENOMENON THAT EFFECTS EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD, THOUGH IN NORTHERN PERU, IT PROBABLY EFFECTS THE MOST DIRECTLY, AND SEVERELY, SO MOST OF THE TIME, THE SEA --THE PACIFIC OCEAN ALONG THE COAST OF PERU IS QUITE COLD.

THE OCEAN WOULD SUDDENLY BECOME WARM AND THAT WOULD LEAD TO A LOT MORE ING INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, FLASH FLOODS, RAIN, YOU KNOW, ALL THE FISH ADAPTED TO THE COLD OCEAN DYING, AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF THE ENVIRONMENT WOULD SUDDENLY TURN INSIDE-OUT.

AND THIS WOULD HAPPEN OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, AND I THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AS, YOU KNOW, SORT OF SIMILAR --EXPERIENCING SOMETHING SIMILAR TO US, WHERE WE THINK WE KNOW WHAT OUR LOCAL ENVIRONMENTS ARE LIKE, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO ADAPT TO THEM, WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO LIVE IN THEM, WHAT THEY PROVIDE FOR US, AND HAVING THAT SUDDENLY DISAPPEAR, YOU KNOW?

AND IN THE CASE OF PERU, JUST BECOME THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF WHAT IT USUALLY IS, AND HOW MUCH GRIEF AND CONFUSION AND, YOU KNOW, SADNESS AND TERROR THAT MIGHT HAVE GENERATED, BUT WHAT I ALSO SAW, OR WHAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE FOUND, IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE PEOPLE LIVING AT THIS TIME WERE, YOU KNOW, QUITE --WERE LIVING MOSTLY IN SMALLER GROUPS, MOVING AROUND, AGAIN, HUNTER/GATHERERS, AND WE MIGHT THINK THAT AN APOCALYPSE LIKE THAT, YOU KNOW, SUDDENLY MAKE THE FIGHTING FOR TERRITORY OR FIGHTING FOR RESOURCES, BUT WHAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS HAVE FOUND IS THAT IN THE CENTURIES AND MILLENNIA AFTER EL KNEE NINO CAME TOGETHER IN WAYS THEY HAVEN'T BEFORE, OFTEN ACTUALLY IN THE ENVIRONMENTS THAT EL NINO WAS TRANSFORMING, BY CREATING WETLANDS AND, YOU KNOW, A BUNCH OF --LEAVING BEHIND A BUNCH OF MUD FROM LANDSLIDES.

AND ONE OF THE VERY FIRST HUGE MONUMENTS IN PERU THAT WOULD HAVE TAKEN COOPERATION OF HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE TO BUILD WAS ACTUALLY BUILT FROM THE MUD LEFT BEHIND BY THESE EL NINE OWE EVENTS, AND I JUST THOUGHT MAYBE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS NOT AN APOCALYPSE PULLING PEOPLE APART, BUT REALLY BRINGING THEM TOGETHER IN A WAY THAT THEY MAY HAVE NEVER -- NEVER EVEN IMAGINED DOING BEFORE.

>> YOU ALSO ASK THE READER TO LOOK AMOUNT MEXICO CITY AS AN EXAMPLE OF A POST-APOCALYPTIC CIVILIZATION.

EXPLAIN.

>> YEAH, SO, I LIVED IN MEXICO CITY FOR OVER TEN YEARS, AND IT WAS REALLY ONE OF THE INSPIRATIONS FOR THIS BOOK.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, I THINK MEXICO CITY WAS BORN OF AN APOCALYPSE, THE CONQUEST OF THE AZTEC EMPIRE BY THE SPANISH EMPIRE, IN 1521.

SO, IN THE CASE OF THE AZTEC EMPIRE, IT WAS AN EMPIRE, THERE WAS A LOT OF RESISTANCE TO THEIR RULE, A LOT OF INEQUALITY, AND, SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN THE EUROPEAN INVADERS ARRIVED, SOME OF THE AZTECS, YOU KNOW, LONG-TERM ENEMIES ALLIED WITH THESE NEWCOMERS, AND KIND OF USED THEM AS WEAPONS, KIND OF, AND, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE STORY WAS ACTUALLY DRIVEN BY INDIGENOUS AGENCY, INDIGENOUS HISTORY, INDIGENOUS POLITICS, THAT STRETCH BACK CENTURIES BEFORE THERE WAS EVER A EUROPEAN IN MEXICO.

AND THAT THE EUROPEANS THEMSELVES DIDN'T ALWAYS QUITE UNDERSTAND.

AND, YOU KNOW, SO, YOU HAVE THIS REALLY INTERESTING, FASCINATING APOCALYPSE AND, YOU KNOW, SHORT, LIKE, ONLY THREE OR FOUR YEARS.

AND MEXICO CITY'S OLD NAME IS IN RUBBLE, IT'S BEING RECONSTRUCTED FROM THE STONES, LITERALLY OUT OF THE RUBBLE OF THIS APOCALYPSE, MEXICO CITY IS BUILT, AND REBORN, AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S --WE'RE STILL SUFFERING THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT, RIGHT?

SO, THE AZTEC CITY WAS T ON A LAKE.

THERE WAS AN ISLAND, AND THE CENTER OF THE CITY WAS ON IT, AND THEN THERE WAS ALL THESE FARMLANDS, CANALS, AND ARTIFICIAL ISLANDS AND IT WAS JUST A REALLY KIND OF AMPHIBIOUS ENVIRONMENT THAT THE AZTECS HAD FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO A LOT ABOUT HOW TO MANAGE THE WATER, HOW TO LIVE WITH THE WATER, AND WHEN EUROPEANS ARRIVED, DESTROYED ALL THIS HYDRAULIC INFRASTRUCTURE, AND EITHER JUST DIDN'T REALIZE, OR DIDN'T WANT TO, REBUILD IT, THEY NEVER QUITE MANAGED TO FIGURE, LIKE, FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE WITH THE WATER AS THE AZTECS DID, AND THEY DRAINED THE LAKE, AND THAT'S LEFT US, YOU KNOW, THIS HUGE MEGACITY OF OVER 20 MILLION PEOPLE, I THINK KIND OF TEETERING ON THIS PILE OF MUD, AND THAT, YOU KNOW, CREATES DEVASTATING EARTHQUAKES, EVEN THOUGH THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY FAULTS CLOSE TO MEXICO CITY.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE'RE STILL SUFFERING THE RAINY SEASON, JUST STARTED A FEW WEEKS AGO HERE, AND WE'RE ALREADY, YOU KNOW, THERE'S FLOODS EVERY WEEK, AND IT'S BEEN LIKE THIS FOR 420 YEARS AND COUNTING.

AND SO, IT'S LIKE, WE'RE STILL SUFFERING VERY IMMEDIATELY, THE EFFECTS OF COLON IA LISM AND THE DECISIONS MADE.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF CHANGE IN MEXICAN SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, BECAUSE OF THE KIND OF COMMUNITIES THAT COME TOGETHER AFTER THESE DISASTERS.

SO, I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT'S BOTH POST-APOCALYPTIC TRAGEDY AND A POST-APOCALYPTIC OPPORTUNITY, RIGHT?

AND I THINK LIVING EVERY DAY WITH THAT KIND OF PARADOX AND COGNITIVE DISSONANCE REALLY MADE ME THINK ABOUT APOCALYPSES DIFFERENTLY AND MADE ME WANT TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

>> YOU ALSO SHOW US THAT THERE ARE KIND OF DIFFERENT SCALES OF APOCALYPSES, SO TO SPEAK.

ON THE ONE HAND, IN OUR LIFETIMES, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD CONSIDER THE PANDEMIC TO BE AN APOCALYPTIC EVENT FOR THEM, IF THEY LOST SEVERAL MEMBERS OF THEIR FAMILY, AND THEY CERTAINLY --THE ENTIRE WORLD, FOR A VERY SMALL MOMENT, EXPERIENCED LOCKDOWN AND, YOU KNOW --WE HAD THIS KIND OF SHARED EXPERIENCE.

>> I MEAN, I THINK YOU CAN SEE IN THE PANDEMIC STORY, PARTICULARLY, AND IT'S REALLY REFLECTED IN WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, A REAL RESISTANCE SO CULTURAL CHANGES THAT WERE, YOU KNOW, ULTIMATELY NECESSITATED BY THESE DISEASES, AND, YOU KNOW, AND AFTER THE BLACK DEATH, THEY WERE PASSING LAWS UP UNTIL 40 YEARS AFTER THE PANDEMIC, YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE GENERATIONS AT THAT POINT, TRYING TO GET THE WORKING CLASS BACK IN LINE, BACK ACCEPTING WHAT, YOU KNOW, THE LIMITED POORLY PAID POVERTY-STRICKEN LIVES THEY HAD BEFORE, AND, YOU KNOW, THAT --YOU CAN SEE IN THE LENGTH OF TIME OF THOSE LAWS JUST HOW -- HOW -- HOW LONG IT TAKES FOR THESE --FOR ALL OF THE RIPPLE EFFECTS TO PLAY OUT.

AND I THINK FOR ME, THINKING ABOUT APOCALYPSES, INCLUDING THE PANDEMIC, WHICH I REALLY THINK WE WON'T KNOW, EVEN POTENTIALLY WITHIN OUR LIFETIMES ALL THE EFFECTS IT'S GOING TO HAVE ON US PERSONALLY AND E PERSONALLY ON OUR SOCIETIES, BUT FOR ME, THINKING ABOUT APOCALYPSES, ONE REALLY PORT AND OFTEN ENCOURAGING THING TO CONSIDER, IS THAT APOCK LPSS ARE MOMENTS THAT WHEN THINGS THAT SEEM IMPOSSIBLE BEFORE SUDDENLY BECOME POSSIBLE.

AND THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THOSE THINGS ARE NECESSARILY AN IMPROVEMENT.

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT THEY'RE NECESSARILY A TRAGEDY.

AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT SOCIETIES ACROSS HUMAN HISTORY HAVE EXPERIENCED APOCALYPSES VERY DIFFERENTLY, DEPENDING ON WHO WE ARE AS A SOCIETY.

FOR THE ELITES, THE BLACK DEATH WAS A TERRIFYING TRAGEDY, NOT ONLY THE LOSS OF LIFE, BUT THE LOSS OF POWER, AND CONTROL.

FOR THE WORKING CLASSES, WE DON'T HAVE AS MANY OF THEIR FEELINGS WRITTEN DOWN, IF ANY, BUT WE CAN SEE THEM, YOU KNOW, REFUSING TO ACCEPT THIS PRE-PLAGUE STATUS QUO IN THE WRITINGS OF THE ELITE.

SO, YOU CAN SORT OF SEE HOW PEOPLE ARE HAVING DIFFERENT EXPERIENCES.

AND, YES, THINGS THAT WOULD HAVE SEEMED IMPOSSIBLE BEFORE ARE SUDDENLY ON THE TABLE, AND EVERYTHING IS UP FOR GRABS AFTER AN APOCALYPSE, AND EVEN DURING, SOMETIMES, AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, SEEING THESE EVENTS, NOT ONLY AS MOMENTS OF LOSS, WHICH THEY CERTAINLY ARE, BUT ALSO AS OPPORTUNITIES AND DOORS THAT WE CAN WALK THROUGH INTO A WORLD THAT WE MAYBE COULDN'T EVEN HAVE IMAGINED BEFORE.

I THINK THAT --THAT BRINGS ME A LOT OF HOPE.

>> LIZZIE WADE, AUTHOR OF THE BOOK "APOCALYPSE," THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.