[Music] thank you [Music] thank you foreign I'm Heather Marie montia and you are watching PBS books thank you for joining us PBS books is partnering with the Institute of Museum and Library Services the nation's largest cultural agency to produce visions of America all stories all people all places a digital first series of videos and conversations that explores our nation with a renewed interest in the places people and stories that have contributed to the America we live in today this series provides an opportunity for all Americans to celebrate the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence and our nation's founding in advance of 2026. today's conversation is the last in a series of three virtual visions of America conversations and commemorates the 75th anniversary of the desegregation of the Armed Forces led by imls director Crosby Kemper esteemed Scholars professor Matthew Delmont and Professor Jeffrey Sammons as well as distinguished Brigadier General Terry Williams will explore the important role that people of color played in the armed forces from the Revolutionary War through the passage of President Truman's executive order and Beyond connecting to our earlier conversations about our country's promises and obligations this program will highlight the important role African Americans and people of color played in our country's history and Wars which has often been overlooked now it is my extraordinary pleasure to introduce the sixth director of The Institute of Museum and Library Services Crosby Kemper Crosby Kemper was commissioned by the White House on January 24 2020 following his confirmation by the United State Senate to lead imls an independent government agency which is the primary source of federal funding for the nation's museums and libraries welcome Crosby thank you heather today in celebration of the 75th anniversary of President Harry Truman's order to desegregate the Armed Forces on July 26 1948 we have brought together three experts to talk about the extension of equality of the meaning of the phrase all men are created equal from the Declaration of Independence and about those folks African-Americans Native Americans Asian Americans who are willing to give up their lives in order that their fellow citizens could enjoy life liberty and the pursuit of happiness Americans who through slavery discrimination racism had not experienced as much of that Liberty and that Pursuit of Happiness and yet still we're willing to fight for it in other words we will recognize some of our fellow citizens who understood better than most the reciprocal nature of our rights and our obligations it's not well known that the American armed forces were not always segregated in the Revolutionary War the over five thousand black Americans in the Continental Army fought primarily side by side with whites sometimes with their white Masters and slavers and with the promise frequently that they would thereby earn their freedom but there were also free men of color who volunteered to fight and from the beginning at Lexington in Concord and Bunker Hill there were at least a hundred and three black Americans we know that Peter Salem was at like Lexington and Bunker Hill he might well have fired the shot heard around the world one man we might do well to remember is Colonel George Middleton whose story is told in David Hackett Fisher's remarkable recent book African founders skilled with horses a hostler he fought at the Battle of Groton Heights and in actions on the New England coast he commanded a group of former slaves called the Bucks of America his service in that of the box was commemorated by John Hancock himself with a banner bearing the Bucks Insignia and Hancock's initials his 1787 house still stands on Beacon Hill and is said to be the oldest surviving residents in that place that historic place his neighbor and acquaintance the Abolitionist Lydia Maria child tells the story of the annual celebration of the end of the slave trade held on Boston Common which one year was attacked by a mob of young white hoodlums and the black celebrants were chased off the common as the mob came to the top of Beacon Hill they were met by Colonel Middleton with a loaded musket and an imprecation to the first white boy who should approach they did not they melted away we might also note that George Washington when he took command of the Continental Army was against the employment of blacks initially but then he saw the necessity for sure needs of manpower in the Continental Army so he said let's have free blacks then and after a while he saw the fighting Spirit of all blacks so he gave up any distinctions indeed under the tutelage tutelage of his three anti-slaver anti-slavery aide decant David Humphries John Laurens Alexander Hamilton by the end of the war he was corresponding sympathetically with abolitionists and of course at his death he freed his slaves the question then comes why did it take so long to integrate the Army how did we lose our way and how did we find it again to answer that question we have three distinguished guests Professor Jeffrey Sammons of New York University co-author with John Morrow of Harlem's Rattlers about the great he calls them the undaunted 369th regiment also known as the Harlem Hellfighters professor Matthew Delmont of Dartmouth author of half American the Epic story of African Americans in World War II and we have a practitioner if you will Brigadier General Terry Williams U.S Marine Corps retired there are so many examples of the fighting Spirit of people of color in our history units in the Civil War like the 54th Massachusetts all black with white officers by the War of 1812 the main representation in the Navy their main representation was in the Navy no under Andrew Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans there were free men of color plus a number of slaves so that close to half of Jackson's Force were people of color at the end of the Civil War we lose any sense of African Americans in the military West Point graduates only three African-Americans between the Civil War and the first World War Professor Sammons why is that what happens to allow this disintegration of African Americans in the military yes well interestingly after the Civil War uh Congress passed an act uh that set up for segregated units the 9th and 10th Cavalry and the 24th and 25th Infantry it was part of a bill to that was for the Civil Rights or the further the civil rights of of black people but a captain who is a graduate of West Point Matthew Steele a native alabamian said that this was the worst example of codified segregation and discrimination uh in the federal statutes and worse than statutes in Mississippi uh and uh Alabama so that was the the solidification uh of the uh segregation of the black soldier uh and it's was supposedly uh based in good intention segregated uh uh forces the the Buffalo Soldiers the 9th and 10th Cavalry um they they fight it in in the in the west uh and uh and and then in the Spanish-American war and uh and in Mexico uh chasing Pancho Villa um and and and as part of that the last graduate of West Point the last black graduate of West Point is Charles young um who becomes Colonel Charles young the highest ranking African-American officer and and and you and you write about the the the the need to establish uh uh black National Guard regiments across the country and it happened in Illinois in Ohio and elsewhere but in New York it's a very big issue um and and this is right before World War one and it becomes a political issue and also in some sense a part of the uh the the growth of Harlem and that and and what ultimately will become the Harlem Renaissance um Charles young had a pretty remarkable career well we might uh say something about the experience at West Point for uh the African-American Cadets the first of course was Henry o flipper uh who was graduated in 1877 and was subsequently drummed out of the uh Service uh on somewhat dubious charges uh of not actions not becoming a gentleman and a scholar uh and then he was followed by John Hanks Alexander who gets lost in the discussion of the black West Point or early West Point graduates uh and he seemed to be highly regarded and highly respected at West Point but died very young uh and the third was Charles Young Who came out in 1893 who actually spent five years at the Academy had some issues with math and the beginning of his career and was called a load of coal and was ostracized by as was flipper uh by all the cadets and as would be General uh Benjamin O Davis Jr uh uh who wasn't spoken to except an official capacity for the four years that he that's his latest in 1930s right yes so he came out in 36. um so it gives some sense of the climate at West Point and of course these blacks flipper um uh Hanks Alexander and young were sort of the residue flipper was directly tied to reconstruction and had been recommended for the academy by a reconstruction Senator the others were sort of part of the residue of uh of of reconstruction but they had a very difficult time but young ended up having a pretty great career I mean and he uh not only fighting with the the Buffalo Soldiers but he became a superintendent of a national park and uh and a diplomat uh in uh Liberia and elsewhere uh a fairly substantial career substantial enough that uh when when when the the 369th is finally established uh uh there's a movement W.B Du Bois is involved in it and others to to make him uh the the commit the commander that's absolutely correct um as early as 1915 uh young was seen by many in the black leadership of New York to be the ideal person to lead this uh black National Guard unit which wasn't organized and established until 1916. the Army had other ideas for him and as you indicated he served On the Border in the pursuit of Pancho via in 1916 was the superintendent of Sequoia National Park was at the Presidio as well and one of the things that was his undoing was when On the Border he was in command of a young white Lieutenant from Mississippi who resented taking orders from a black man uh and things were put in motion to actually really deactivate Young from the Service uh and he was declared unfit for service and there's an interesting story about you know I mean of course he was promoted to Colonel but at the same time deactivated ends up uh being in charge of some unit in the Ohio National Guard young decides to prove his Fitness by riding a horse from Ohio to Washington D.C that's pretty extraordinary yes and only to be told when he arrives that he's proven the only proven the fitness of the horse and not of himself but the true story is that young walked part of the way to give his horse rest along the Route so and this decision it goes all the way to President Wilson and there are there there are seemingly people in the in the Army who are in favor of creating the black regiment creating a a place where African Americans in in the Army the Secretary of War Baker seems open to it and and others but it goes Young's promotion goes all the way up and his retirement goes all the way up to President Wilson absolutely he also was in line to become the first general uh black General a brigadier general uh who would have led a brigade in World War one and that's the main reason why young was deactivated uh and uh placed in reserve status and of course Wilson's denial it brings up the fact that um probably the worst moment at the federal level for sure for African Americans is the Wilson presidency that on on Progressive in many ways uh Woodrow Wilson uh was a southerner and uh and and I think fair to say a racist and of course was involved in the segregation of the federal Offices the removal of a number of high-ranking black officials uh in the federal government but ironically when Wilson wanted blacks to Gar I'm sorry troops to guard the White House he chose the Washington D.C National Guard unit that was all African-American and there was a concern that if he had other units who had so-called hyphenates that they might not have been as loyal uh and faithful uh as the black soldiers from the traditional levels of discrimination yeah and one thing about Truman's order that needs to be remembered is he simultaneously desegregated uh the federal Workforce in 1948 which was the first real reversal of Wilson's segregation of the federal Workforce and so but but then but let's talk about the Harlem Rattlers the Hellfighters the 369th because that's that it it does get created um and they do they do become uh a fighting force in uh in France and there are a lot of great names associated with the with the Rattlers the uh James Reese Europe Horace Pippen Noble Sissel uh Etc it's kind of a it it's it's a great so uh conjuries of some of the great great uh uh parts of Harlem itself Napoleon Bonaparte Marshall who would go on to play a big role in Haiti and Hades Liberation uh from U.S occupation uh and and of course Henry Johnson who would uh be the second black to receive the Medal of Honor uh is one of the outstanding figures of the uh 15th New York National Guard which became the 360. yeah and we need to tell Henry Johnson's story because it's an extraordinary story which which extends in many ways to our own time that you know his his now a medal of honor winner and that's only happened very recently but his story was it was an incredible front page story uh from France from this 369th fighting with the with the French in the lines with the with the French and the Argon well the story is that Henry Johnson that Henry Johnson uh who was from Winston-Salem North Carolina were born there uh spent uh part of his adult life in Albany New York and that's where he was recruited for the uh 15th New York National Guard uh all Henry Johnson and Needham Roberts were on guard Duty in an advanced post uh and basically the Argonne forest and no man's land uh a German raiding party attacked uh their Outpost in hopes of capturing them and gaining important intelligence from uh these two soldiers and also really I think affecting the morale of of the unit uh Henry Johnson and Nina Roberts fought valiantly to repel this Force Needham Roberts was knocked out of action question early Henry Johnson continue the fight and there was said to have been as maybe as many as 24 of these German uh Raiders uh and because of the uh unbelievable uh you know response of of of of Johnson uh they fled many of those who survived Roberts was wounded and out of out of action essentially and and Johnson Johnson I think is gun jammed and so a lot of what he did he did with uh his bolo knife he did with the rifle butt with the bolo knife with his bayonet Etc but what you mentioned Front Page News it so happened that Lincoln iron Martin Greene uh and Irvin Cobb three really famous American journalists uh happened to uh visit uh the camp the day after this event occurred uh and uh for because of them it became front page uh news Across the Nation uh and it was very welcome news not only for blacks but for uh the American people because there had been no uh infantry hero uh of the American expeditionary forces until Henry Johnson there had been aerial Heroes but not on the ground in fact Bello Woods is after this event uh of May 14th May 15 19 18. so even Pershing has to recognize uh The Valor of Johnson and Roberts it's written up in Stars and Stripes uh and this becomes uh Henry Johnson becomes a cause select uh and also for especially for blacks and shows that blacks can uh can fight uh and uh and of course the Army didn't want to use blacks as combat troops uh in the War uh prefer to use them as laborers but because of French persistence and a need for combatants these men were turned over the unit was turned over to the French and greatly admired the 369th they they gave a unit the entire unit uh the Aquatic air uh they did that's because of the assault on say show in September October of 1918 near the end of the war that's the major offensive but let me back up to say that the French gave Henry Johnson uh thequatic air with palm which is at the highest level it's at the order of the army uh for his exploits Nina Roberts also received aquatic air but not at the level uh of the of the army so this made Henry Johnson very special and he said to be the first uh uh American combatant uh infantry combatant to receive the Aquatic air from the front as as is the the 369th at uh Teddy Roosevelt in the book at the end of the war calls him one of the five bravest Americans uh and the 369th house is a a parade down Fifth Avenue at the beginning of 1919 which is a sort of phenomenal moment with James Reese Europe and his band The the band itself became of the 369th became famous to did they not well uh David certainly uh and because of pathe Records uh and also are probably a reason why they're called the hell Fighters uh uh or why it's stuck because the band embraced that that Sensational name but that March up Fifth Avenue actually up Fifth Avenue from Madison Square Park uh to Harlem and that's the first time basically a parade has gone in that direction uh was a sight to behold and they marched in French formation 16 across which had never been seen uh in the United States and David Levering Lewis says that this marked they were in the van of the uh Harlem Renaissance and the new negro and this marked the beginning of that movement and and and yet it you know so there's this great moment and and it's also in some sense the beginning of the Harlem Renaissance in the 20s Etc with some of the people like noble Sissel Europe uh a part of it uh and yet 1919 is one of the worst years in the racial history uh of the United the United States riots uh breaking out and and uh death and destruction of course by 1921 we get the Tulsa Massacre and and uh and the 20s have the Harlem Renaissance on one side and on the other side you you have probably the worst moments of Jim Crow the Ku Klux Klan uh in American history um can I say one other thing about that Crosby so there's a disparagement campaign after the war that's led by Robert E Lee Bullard who was a lieutenant general uh and I forget which core he was in charge of but was an avowed enemy of the black soldier and especially the black officer uh and along with Colonel Alan Greer who had been a chief of staff to uh General Baloo in the 92nd uh division and basically they said that blacks were cowards uh that they were only a threat to themselves and to white women and children uh but not to the enemy uh and uh uh actually the point that I want to make is that that kind of attitude uh became codified in 1925 in the army war College report on negro Manpower uh which basically said that blacks were inferior mentally they were afraid of the dark they did not listen to or respect black officers and it went on and on to disparage a black soldier and actually basically led to the removal of the black soldier from uh the military and as Matthew and the general will tell you uh that uh the same things that happened before and during World War One will happen before and during World War II uh in terms of the treatment and use of black right we have to recreate the whole uh the whole situation again for World War II for those of you just joining us I'm Crosby Kemper the director of The Institute of Museum and Library services and you're watching PBS books I'm here with the steam Scholars Matthew Delmont PhD and Jeffrey Salmon's PhD and the distinguished Brigadier General Terry Williams discussing the important contributions that people of color have made in American history and Wars I'd now like to turn the conversation to Matthew Delmont and general Williams as we head towards World War II with this background that we've we've been talking about Roy Williams who comes out of the ultimately had the NAACP says at the beginning of the war white folks would rather lose the war than give up the the luxury of their race Prejudice um is that a fair headline about what the black community was thinking uh going into uh World War II after Pearl Harbor Matthew it absolutely is I think as Professor Sam was just saying part of what happens after World War One despite the fact that you have more than 300 000 black Americans who serve in World War one after the war there's an active campaign to disparage that service and so black Americans are really pushed out of the Armed Forces between World War one and World War II so the first thing in the lead up to World War II that black Soviets activists have to do is fight for the opportunity to serve it might seem paradoxical but initially the military doesn't want to have black Americans uh be given the opportunity to serve their country even though it's readily apparent that the United States is about to enter in this world war um so the first thing that the newspaper editors and civil rights activists have to do is fight for the opportunity to serve eventually more than a million black men and women serve in the military during World War II but they serve under segregated conditions the entire military is racially segregated during World War II at the start of the war the Marine Corps doesn't allow any black Americans to serve in any capacity and it's important to remember segregation made no sense for a military that was trying to fight and win a global war on the scale there was no strategic or tactical purpose for that segregation I think that goes to Roy Wilkins Roy Wilkins comment that white Americans would rather lose this war think of the luxury of race Prejudice because it was really illogical it was inefficient it meant that they were the military was turning away black Americans who had phds from Harvard who had Advanced language skills who had science and Technical backgrounds who could help win the war they didn't pay attention to any of that they only pay attention to the color people's skins and assigned them to in most cases more menial or subservient roles right and and with different attitudes and uh of senior leaders in the military make a great difference General Williams you and I have talked about General uh Holcomb who was I believe the commandant of the Marines at the beginning of the war saying uh he he'd rather have 5 000 white soldiers than 25 white Marines or then 25 000 uh Black Marines an extraordinary statement after the performance of the modern Point Marines in the Pacific that uh commandant Gates General Gates turned around and and really sent a letter to one of his commanders saying hey this whole trial thing with the Negro Marines is over they're just Marines so uh the performance although recognized on the spot I think both professors will tell you um and recognize by some it still was was nowhere near where where it needs to be and and yet you know with all this discrimination there's a Pittsburgh couriers uh editor Robert Van says at the beginning of the uh of the of the War uh despite all the the the this he says it in anger I think but let us Die For America if need be for we are Americans there's still this incredible patriotism and in a sense of needing to prove something you both Professor Delmont and Professor Sammons you both use the the the the phrase full citizenship uh in in your your work that there seems to be in both World War one and World War II uh uh a felt need in the African-American Community to show something uh to attain that to to prove uh prove everyone wrong prove uh the Marines wrong absolutely I mean for black Americans during World War II the stakes are extraordinarily clear the rallying cry for black Americans in the war was the double Victory campaign because they understood themselves to be fighting both for victory over fascism abroad but also for victim of racism at home and it's important we understand those were dual War aims black Americans really did see themselves fighting two Wars at the same time they were absolutely committed to the military Victory they wanted to do everything they could to help defeat the axis of the Nazis because they understood the the terror that the Nazi ideology was going to bring to bear not just on Europe but to the world because they understood how closely parallel it was to the kind of Jim Crow segregation and violence they were experience in here in the United States but they also understood that those military battles weren't enough it didn't do any good to defeat white supremacy abroad and then come home to the same kind of white supremacy and racial discrimination at home so the second half of that double Victory campaign was fighting the Civil Rights battles coming home in 1945 those black veterans became the the backbone the foundation of the civil rights movement that comes into even more full fruition in the 1950s and 60s so so there's a sense in which that in the first World War uh African-Americans say we're fighting for democracy to save the through the world but also at home and the double v is is the is essentially the uh the the same thing in a way it relates to what W.B Dubois says and Souls of Black Folk about the double Consciousness uh of of black Americans that they're they're at once in some sense black and uh they are American it's not the same Consciousness and and then during during the during the War uh there this notion of uh of heroism uh as a as a proof uh happens over and over again uh as as the the various units the the Tuskegee Airmen for instance uh and Benjamin Davis has been mentioned again is the 47 years between Charles young graduating from West Point and Benjamin O Davis Jr graduating uh from uh from West Point the Tuskegee Airmen they're probably the best known unit in the uh in the war and and they they started out with five five graduates the achievements during the war are are pretty phenomenal uh at the same time their their race riots in Detroit they're there are people uh uh picketing uh uh white people uh demonstrating against black people getting jobs in the in war plants uh Etc um the the the the whole notion of Jim Crow happening during during the war while African Americans are fighting uh on at the front uh is pretty extraordinary it is and if you put yourself back in that time frame imagine yourself as an average black American picking up the Pittsburgh Courier Chicago Defender you're reading stories about the montrepoint Marines that the general just mentioned they had an extraordinary performance particularly in the Pacific Theater in Saipan and Iwo Jima they demonstrate that they're fully Marines that's a remarkable thing to to happen in just a few short years from having no black Americans serve in the Marine Corps to having them on for Point Marines be considered fully Marines you're reading those stories at the same time you're reading about how there are whites who refuse to use the same bathroom facilities at these defense plants that this again they would rather have these defense plans shut down for weeks at a time they would rather go on strike than have them be integrated and so that's part of what black Americans are grappling with at this time frame they're again they're fighting to win the war but they're fighting to change America they want to have America in which they can be treated as full citizens their stories uh uh uh you know we've told the story of Henry Henry Johnson their stories for instance Vernon Baker which you you talk about Vernon Baker in in your book who eventually like uh Henry Johnson receives the Medal of Honor though very late um okay can you tell his story maker so during the war there are 433 Medals of Honor awarded none of them are awarded to black troops in the 1990s the military conductory review and ends up promoting seven people who research received the distinguished service cross to the Medal of Honor Vernon Baker was the only person still alive to receive his medal in person he was 77 years old at the time and initially when he got the call from the White House he didn't want to go he said I performed these acts five decades ago you should have honored me then rather now during the war he was part of an infantry unit and helped to take out several machine gun positions and helped the Allies take over a German Mountain stronghold in Italy and one of my favorite quotes in the book comes from Baker he said that I was an Angry Young Man we were all Angry we had a job to do and we did it which I think encapsulates a lot of the sentiment of that generation of black veterans they recognized autocracy they recognize the Discrimination yet they gave everything they absolutely could to help win the war Doris Miller was a 22 year old mess attendant originally from Waco Texas who is on the USS West Virginia it's important to understand and in the Navy at that time period black men could only serve as mess attendants where their jobs on the ship was to do laundry and cook and clean essentially serve white officers even though that was Miller's responsibility on the ship once the bombing of Pearl Harbor happened he performed heroically he went above deck and helped attend to the wounds of his wounded Shipmates he helped make a makeshift stretcher and move his captain to a safer spot in the deck and then when his Lieutenant ordered him to go to the anti-aircraft guns he went over there and even though he had no training on the ship's weapons he started firing the aircraft gun at some of the Japanese planes that were circling overhead potentially hitting and Downing one of them even though it took several weeks for Miller's name to get announced there was a rumor that circulated that a black mess attendant had performed heroically and it really it galvanizes black Americans because they're saying look if you just give this opportunity we we have the courage we have The Bravery to be able to perform in this way and I think to connect it to the present in a couple years the Navy is going to launch a an aircraft carrier it's going to be named after Doris Miller if we think about all the things that might surprise someone from 1941 the fact that aircraft carrier is going to be named after a black mess attendant would have to be right up there on the top of the list the Navy was very slow to give him an honor and in fact it took pressure from uh the NAACP and other black organizations to make that happen um and there's also a movement afoot to uh have Jory Miller receive the Medal of Honor and and uh Professor Sims you're on the the Medal of Honor commission is that is that correct I'm on a uh Valor Metals uh Task Force review team uh and uh that started out of the World War One Centennial uh commission but it's only looking at the uh soldiers of world black soldiers and and other minorities actually from World War One there's never been a systematic review uh for World War one and there are only two uh blacks who received the Medal of Honor Freddie Stowers and Henry Johnson from uh World War one and as you indicate uh Henry Johnson's came in 2015 Stowers in 1991. yeah I was a a a small part a very small part of the the uh those folks lobbying for uh Henry Johnson's uh medals I knew a man named Herman Johnson in Kansas City who thought he was Henry Johnson's son which turned out not to be to be true but he he was very engaged in uh and uh actively trying to uh to to see Henry Johnson get his medals so General let me ask you this question uh uh today things have changed um uh and and it must do uh as an African-American officer before other African-American officers must do some some good to see the sort of reparative work that the Medal of Honor going to and the reconsideration of medals and for for various people um have have things changed a lot of things changed enough well absolutely Kepler uh today uh we've got policies in place that uh not only look to award fairly those service members who have performed heroic heroically or uh that have uh been worthy of an award uh so not only we have those policies in place but we've also got processes and controls uh and although they're still lengthy they're much more thorough they've got documented Witnesses we've got Superior officers who get checked we've got a number of levels of scrutiny and I think what's even even more important is even after the fact many years later uh we've got panels that look back to ensure no one was missed so it's today's military and very very uh uh deliberate look to ensure fairness and equity in uh in awarding rightfully uh those who uh who are heroic whether in combat or or any other uh any other Deeds and uh at the end of World War II you know there are these you know Great Moments the Tuskegee Airmen and their their remarkable uh service and the number of uh uh shootings uh shooting shooting shooting down enemy airplanes and uh and being a part of the of the war in Europe a significant part of the war were in Europe uh the the 24th uh regiment and the 92nd division Etc the the all the things that that were done and yet as veterans come home uh in in 1945 and 1946 this is it seems to be a replay in some in some ways of what happened in 1919 1920 1921 uh there are still lynchings there are uh and and famously there's a story of Isaac Woodard who is blinded can you tell tell that story because it had a big impact on Harry Truman yeah just as you're saying the kind of violence that black veterans encounter at the end of World War II was was an outrage uh there were at least a dozen examples of black veterans being attacked uh murdered or beaten uh in the Years just after the war some while still wearing their military uniforms and the one that resonated most powerfully Across the Nation was Isaac Woodard uh he had just finished a tour in the Pacific Theater I was coming home to return to his family in South Carolina there was a dispute with the bus driver he ends up getting taken off the bus by Sheriff and beaten so badly he was blinded for Life the sheriff uses night sick to beat him in essentially gouged his eyes out woodard's case uh gets national attention in part because Orson Welles the the radio commentator and activist takes it up in consultation and at the urging of the NAACP and so among the the dozens of cases of violence that one gets gets the most national attention among the people who pays attention to it is President Truman Truman of course was a World War One veteran himself and so he he really was outraged by this the violence and the treatment that black veterans um encountered and it's one of the factors that that led him to sign the executive order in 1948 uh it was the intense political pressure he was receiving from from black activists the the sense of the importance of black voters in the future the Cold War pressures were there but the the moral outrage at the the beating of Woodard and the the killing of other black veterans really did impact Truman and there are a lot of forces at work he had uh set up first Civil Rights Commission which had reported with a dozen or so recommendations none of which he could really get past the the the southerners and the in the Senate the white Southerners and the uh in the Senate but he did have he had two vehicles that he could do on his own one being the desegregation of the federal Workforce itself and then of course the desegregation of the Armed Forces there's you know there's the question of you know how much of this was political the black vote was important in uh in ER in big cities in in states that he had to have to uh to be renominated to be nominated for president and and and to to be elected uh in 1948 but but he also by by issuing the order he guaranteed that he had another opponent uh from the south Senator Thurman of course is a dixiecrat candidate for president so what what's your your view of uh of of his decision was it a political decision a moral decision or or both I think it was both and for president I think all decisions at their at their root are political and it really did reshape the political landscape in the country it meant that black Americans moved more fully into the Democratic column but it also meant that the segregationist wing of the democratic party split off uh initially with the Dixiecrats and eventually leaving the Democratic party altogether I did show executive leadership though from Truman for him to to take this this calculated political risk to sign the executive order to start the integration of the armed services was was extraordinarily important of course it doesn't happen overnight it takes a full six years before the military is is fully integrated and then it's still an ongoing process to pass the kind of policies that the general is referring to to make sure that the actual experience of people call it in the military is Equitable but we wouldn't have the kind of military we have today with the the demographic diversity and the opportunities for for different racial ethnic groups if it were not for that initial building block of the executive order in 48. and we shouldn't forget to mention the GI Bill uh and how that in many respects was a raw deal for blacks veterans especially around education and housing and uh whereas blacks were sort of shunted into uh a technical and uh a non-academic uh institutions uh and weren't given uh uh loans for housing uh which was still largely segregated and part part of the legacy of uh and you've mentioned this uh uh Professor Delmont but part of the veterans themselves and and I'm sure General there's an effect on on the Armed Forces uh in in this people like Oliver Brown the father and brown V board Medgar Evers Rosa Parks herself uh was was in a war and it was a employed in the War Industry in uh in in Alabama there's there's a there there's an empowering effect of what happened during the war that is longer lasting than after the first rule would you agree absolutely I think by and large that entire generation of black veterans comes back and they fight to change the country in all aspects including the military I think that's important for the people who made their careers in the military in uh the Korean War and eventually in Vietnam in the later conflicts they were doing the underground work to make sure that that institutional organization was going to be an equitable place that didn't didn't come overnight didn't come strictly through presidential executive order it took through it came through hard dedicated work of of activists and citizens who who wanted uh this country to be the kind of Equitable democracy that it can and should be yeah I think it's fair to say today much more Equitable across the board you've got the Veterans Administration that provides the new GI Bill that is uh I used it myself for myself and for my son uh it can be used by all service members based on the rules that currently exist and depending on when they came in but the Veterans Administration also provides medical support to those veterans who have gotten out regardless of color uh so I think we've come a long way there are checks and balances medical evaluations before and after you've uh you're leaving the uh the armed services uh treatment and Rehabilitation you've got case managers it really is a much much more Equitable uh uh outcome since uh since the wars uh World War II and then and on and Professor Sammons you being involved in uh in in the history of the Medal of Honor and and and that are we finally with the seven Medal of Honor awardees only Vernon Baker still alive with the uh recognition of Henry Johnson the recognition perhaps of Doris Miller are we finally getting to a point where where we're recognizing our our history as we should uh we're making steps toward it but there's a long way to go and there's a recent example Paris I can't remember his full name uh uh who I think served in Vietnam and had been recommended for the Medal of Honor by his superiors and his paperwork kept getting lost and finally I think maybe at age 86 he recently received a medal of honor uh which you know is just I I think evidence that this stuff still continues too it's still a struggle yeah that's still a struggle and we should also mention that uh that the nisei regiment in World War uh to the Japanese-American young men who were recruited from internment camps uh to become one of not the most decorated regiment uh in American history and the Wind Talkers the cloud talkers the Native Americans who in World War One joined up at a higher percentage than than any other group and they were not even technically many of them not even technically American citizens at that point which you know the the the question of citizenship and and obligations in our our history is is a two-way street and and and they're those who are willing to to serve and and to offer up their their lives who got no recognition and we still it seems to me offer owe them a debt of recognition at the very least and probably much more than uh than that um so I I like to to mention the the story of uh uh a Tuskegee Airman whom I knew uh which is uh Colonel Charles McGee Colonel McGee uh flew in World War II Korea and Vietnam and had four when he retired had 409 combat missions that he had flown which might be the most at his retirement anyway that any American had flown and uh and you I'm from Kansas City and he ran the uh in his last uh post for the uh for the Air Force he he ran the Richard skebauer Air Force and then eventually when he retired to downtown Kansas City Airport and uh and he spoke in the Kansas City Library um and and he spoke without any other sense than a sense of Duty that what he had done was his duty uh as a member of the American armed forces uh and uh and I I remember him and he he got some some uh instance of Fame he flipped the coin at the 2019 Super Bowl uh with the NFL recognizing his length of service but not telling his his story his incredible story he did he did actually retire as a a general um so it seems to me we're beginning to recognize but we're still at the beginning of the recognition of what people of color in this country have done for this country history tells us perhaps it's not too late to honor them as the best representatives of the moral equality of all pronounced in the Declaration and maybe is more morally Superior examples of devoting their lives their fortunes and their sacred honor to their vision of America gentlemen thank you very much for being part of this conversation thank you thank you it was my pleasure it's time to close our conversation now I'd like to invite Heather back in from PBS books thank you so much this this conversation for guiding the conversation Crosby it's been really wonderful to get to hear so very much from our guests Professor Delmont and Professor Sammons we are so appreciative for you sharing your knowledge and expertise Brigadier General Williams thank you for sharing your insights and your first hand perspectives we certainly hope all of our viewers have gained a greater understanding of the importance of the 75th anniversary of the desegregation of the Armed Forces and added to uncovering Hidden American stories as a reminder beginning in Fall 2023 imls director Crosby Kemper will host monthly shows about lesser-known historical sites that symbolize an aspect of the spirit of America's Independence we'll launch this on September 27th by going to Miami to see the Freedom Tower well we always like to thank our library and Museum partners and numerous PBS stations across the country for sharing this important content with all of you but most importantly we'd like to thank all of you for joining us today well until next time I'm Heather Marie montia and happy reading foreign [Applause]