[Music] I'm Heather Marie montia and you're watching PBS books PBS books is partnering with the Institute of Museum and Library services to produce visions of America all stories all people all places this series celebrates the 250th anniversary of our nation this month's conversation will premiere on August 16th and commemorates the 75th anniversary of the desegregation of the Armed Forces led by imls director Crosby Kemper Scholars Matthew Delmont and Jeffrey Sammons as well as Brigadier General Terry Williams will explore the important role that people of color played in the armed forces in American history Professor Sammons is an author of Harlem Rattlers and the Great War the undaunted 369th regiment and the African American quest for equality let's welcome Jeffrey Sammons to share about his book welcome thank you heather well we're so excited to have you and we're gonna delve into your book a little bit can you tell us about your book well this is a story about the first black National Guard uh unit that was organized uh in New York state uh and it didn't happen until 1916. and after many years of of campaigning and um politicking uh finally the New York uh politicians and leaders agree to establishing this regimen for for blacks and one of the unheralded heroes uh of the 15th New York National Guard which became the 369th regiment uh known now primarily is the Harlem Hellfighters but they would eventually call themselves The Rattlers after other nicknames such as the fighting 15 uh and the old 15. um and that's an interesting story in itself uh as to why they held on to their 15th designation as opposed to the 369th even post-war and that is because uh the 369 designated them as a draft e unit uh when they were indeed National Guardsmen and so they felt insulted by having been put into the drafty Army when they should have been a part of the National Guard Army but I get into the weeds there uh but in any event um the book is more than about the the 15th slash 369th uh regimen it's actually about in the subtitle reflects that the undaunted 369th in the African-American Quest For Freedom so they were part of the black Freedom struggle and blacks understood that they could not gain full citizenship uh without participating in the nation's Wars uh you know the Revolutionary War uh the War of 1812 uh and certainly the Civil War in which Frederick Douglass told black men that you cannot expect to have full freedom and to be accepted as full citizens uh without sacrifice uh and that meant service but also the risk of uh death uh but it was worth the price uh and so blacks through the Spanish-American war and into World War One understood the importance of participating in the military and especially in the nation's Wars so how long I mean the book is is extensive and documents a lot of interesting stories history how long did it take to write this book and also where did you get the idea to write this book well it it started in about 2000 and the book was published in 2014 so that's a very very long period uh there were many roadblocks along the way it wasn't that we were writing that long the book had to be reviewed refereed uh it was a different kind of book than the book that uh the person who actually came to me with the idea had in mind um and I insisted that if we were going to do a book on the 369th which had already been written about a few times but not in my opinion in a satisfactory manner especially for an academic uh uh book uh scholarly work that much more had to be done and fortunately I was able to convince my good friend John H Morrow Jr to join me because he's more of a operational military historian than I am and also was trained as a europeanist who was fluent in French and German so we're able to use foreign sources that others weren't uh as well but I ex spent extended periods of time at the National Archives and that's where the bulk of the material on the regiment was I always told my students that when they were doing a research project that all roads lead to Washington DC so it's either the Library of Congress the federal record Center or the National Archives where the materials are going to be certainly A good rule of thumb um so what was the role of the Harlem Rattlers or the Harlem Hell fighters in World War II well let's World War one so excuse me World War One my mistake I guess and let's let's start with the name first so um they became the Rattlers in somewhere around April of 1918 when they were assigned to the French and that's an important part of this story that they went over to Europe by themselves as a regiment uh and they could not have been used in combat alone they would have had to have been placed with other units the division is the smallest fighting units and that is made up of four regiments so the question was whether they would be assigned as Replacements in the 92nd division uh which was an all-black division uh made up of the 365th 366 367th and 368 regiments or whether they would be used as laborers and the decision was made to use them as stevedores unloading ships uh as uh uh construction workers Building Bridges railroads roads Etc and uh their kernel went to uh headquarters American expeditary expeditionary Force Headquarters uh and spoke with General Pershing about using his men for what they were trained and that was his combat soldiers fortunately the French were desperate for reinforcements they needed Manpower they had been in the war since 1914 and the Americans don't come on the scene until 1918. so They begged for use of this black unit and Pershing relents and they're assigned to the French in March of 1918. they see that the French use these iconic figures on their vehicles and Equipment Etc they don't use numbers or names of units to disguise them uh but there are all kinds of designs Etc so it comes to Colonel hayward's head that the quintessential American symbol is the rattlesnake that we know from the Gadsden flag of the American revolutionary period that's now been appropriated as a symbol of the right and don't tread on me but that is the symbol that this unit adopted and of course the rattlesnake is a fierce creature as well and you don't mess with it um and so that's how they became the Rattlers but after the war the American Press started referring to them as the hell Fighters uh and actually the band embraced that uh appellation uh and it stuck and it's alliterative it's uh Sensational um and uh so that actually uh drowned out the Rattlers drowned out the old 15th of the fighting 15th and the Harlem Hell Fighters uh became uh the name that is with us today what were some of the battles they participated in and what were some of the challenges they face well let's start with uh the first really big encounter uh that really put the 369th on the map no one in America before this happened knew what the 369th was doing in Europe but on May 14th 1918 Henry Johnson and Needham Roberts were out on an advanced a posting uh and they were there to observe uh and to listen uh for any movement of the enemy and it so happened that the enemy was there and this was intent on raiding the 369's position in the Argonne Forest they came with approximately 24 men uh they demobilize or d uh yes they uh basically disarmed uh Needham Roberts took him out of the action very quickly but Henry Johnson fought back fiercely saved Norm uh Needham Roberts from being captured uh killed at least uh three of the four Germans before they fled uh with his bayonet with a rifle butt with a bolo Knight so happened that the very next day three prominent reporters from American Publications the Saturday evening post the New York evening uh world uh and uh uh Erwin Cobb's paper as as well and they published this story about the Battle of of Henry Johnson and even General Pershing had to acknowledge what happened and revealed that these soldiers had been assigned to the French so they became the first real infantry combat Heroes of the war and especially Henry Johnson and they're all these images there's the one by Charles Rogers in which this Hawking looming uh you know bestial uh Henry Johnson has is shown having slaughtered all these Germans and is holding Needham Roberts and his uh empty hand uh and it's the the caption is uh two uh Real Americans and uh so this uh is uh uh something that is a of great interest to blacks it it it it builds their uh morale it hopes helps to show that blacks are very uh capable of of fighting in combat uh and this is something that uh they will have internalized uh long after uh uh the War uh the black uh Soldier has fierce fighter they receive the proper recognition both by the French government and the US government and how long maybe did it take very good question because uh Henry Johnson and Needham Roberts received no American honors at the time um eventually there would be some recognition and we'll get into that but uh Needham Roberts received the uh aquatic air uh by order of the division Henry Johnson received aquaticare by order of the army and it was with palm which was the highest level of that award and you know there seems to be a consensus view that Henry Johnson was the first black infantry combat Soldier to have received the quad agair with palm from uh the French uh he got some Chevrons for having been wounded as did Needham Roberts but wasn't until long after the war that either of them received a Purple Heart and then of course Henry Johnson would eventually receive first the distinguished service cross after much campaigning and this happened in the 19 I'm sorry in 2003 but there was still a belief among many uh especially those who were associated with the 369th historical Association and Veterans Association that Henry Johnson was deserving of the Medal of Honor which is the highest honor of that American Soldier can receive and that didn't happen until 2015 uh in the Obama Administration and he was only the second black from World War one to have received a medal of Honor in that war and a similar thing would happen in and that was only in 1991 that Freddie Stowers also received a medal of honor he was with the 371st uh regiment uh which was part of the 93rd provisional Division and that was a South Carolina Regiment of draftees um and in World War II no blacks would receive the Medal of Honor at the time it wasn't until 1997 uh that blacks would receive the Medal of Honor in World War II Professor Simmons how what is the process then for people to get a medal of honor 60 70 100 years later or 90 years later how does that how does that happen well with Henry Johnson there were numerous attempts and there were numerous denials uh and in fact Freddie Stowers got his because this there was a search to determine whether Henry Johnson an investigation to determine whether Henry Johnson was uh worthy uh and the decision was no at the time and this was in I think around 1990 uh and that Stowers was then um uh uh awarded the Medal of Honor because of some strange technicality that his file had not been fully processed and his action was worthy and the committee that looked into this said well we will not be uh you know overriding a decision that had already been made in his case because none had been had been made but with Henry Johnson on the second go round uh uh Senator Charles Schumer uh Enlisted the help of many prominent Scholars to come up with as much information that would support Henry Johnson's worthiness for a medal of honor and because of the uh support of Senator Schumer uh the uh red tape could be you know managed much more easily there was a direct connection uh between his office and the uh Army secretary and also the uh secretary uh of defense and at the same time that Henry Johnson received his uh William Sherman a Jewish Soldier uh also received uh the Medal of Honor and of course Jews had also been discriminated against has had Latinos and Asian Americans Native Americans uh other ethnic groups of color so-called uh were denied the recognition that they deserved Professor we've spoken and we've spoken a lot about this the service or at least we have a sliver of some of what happened how did the service by the Harlem Rattlers how did that influence and you've spoken a little bit about how it influenced sentiments in the United States but did it did it influence or impact the Civil Rights movements and how do you believe it did yes but and let me back up a second because I focused on Henry Johnson uh and that was very early in the war that was uh actually before the Americans were fighting uh and uh the entire regiment would receive the quad agair from the French uh because of the uh assault on say show which was part of the Mercer Argonne offensive which happened in late September early October of 1918 it was basically the the offensive that ended the war and 171 to 174 individuals received the quad agair uh in 369th uh regimen uh so they were performing on a world stage uh like never before uh and show themselves to be a positive force in uh the world and this was something that could not be denied and it's something that blacks witnessed uh and in fact when the 369th marches up Fifth Avenue uh February 19th uh 1919 David Levering Lewis in his book when Harlem was in Vogue says that this was the beginning of the new negro movement and the new negro movement had various kinds of uh facets or aspects uh it was a literary movement uh it was a artistic uh movement uh but it was also a political movement and even a movement at the very Grassroots level uh that Claude Mckay and his famous poem writes about if we must die let us not die like Hogs right uh that these men become part of the so-called red summer of 1919 there are riots actually sort of pilgrims in uh especially Chicago in Washington DC other major cities in 1921 Tulsa Oklahoma and soldiers play or veterans play an important role in these racial outbreaks so uh many people write World War one off as a lost cause in terms of the black Freedom struggle because so little seemed to have been gained after the war that there was a return to the status quo ante uh but that's not true there they laid the groundwork for what would happen in World War II when we would have the double V campaign and then after uh victory at home and victory abroad uh and making demands basically but it's after the war that you know the United Nations in which you know there's a notion of self-determination and also the genocide and the proper treatment of minorities and of course in 1948 the Civil Rights Commission that Henry Harry Truman establishes uh and the executive order uh of 1948 uh which basically starts the ball rolling on the integration uh of the Armed Forces which actually takes place on the ground in Korea in 1951. and of course after uh Chad Williams writes about basically the radicalization of many soldiers who had been exposed to a different type of life and appreciation that they had never received back home by foreigners so they had become Cosmopolitan they had seen Paris gay Pari and they could not be sent back to the farm at least in their minds so there was an awaking Awakening of the individual uh that extended beyond the soldier the soldiers sort of became just representatives of this new negro that others basically embraced okay I have two last questions for you one and I I don't know I've been thinking did you ever have an opportunity to meet any members of the Harlem Rattlers that's one and two if you were to summarize what their legacy is today in a few sentences what would it be no when I actually when I started working on this project which was 2000 all of them were dead um I think that the one of them there there was a documentary uh call Harlem Hellfighters uh and and there was a I think that was 1998 and there might have been one guy who was alive then but no I did not know any of them um and of course I came across them through William miles's film men of bronze uh which uh is an invaluable it's flawed but an invaluable treatment and a remarkable achievement uh of of the uh uh 369 uh regiment and I believe that was from 1977 uh and of course at the time there were a number of of uh members of the regimen uh who were alive and one of them was this Melville Miller who was an incredible rocking tour uh and uh he made you feel that you knew members uh of the regiment uh through him and his stories foreign well thank you so much um Professor samans for sharing about your book with us to learn more about this and to hear from Professor Jeffrey Sammons join us on August 16th at 8pm Eastern Standard Time on pbsbooks.org our Facebook page or our YouTube page for visions of America the Harlem hellfighter story is an essential part of World War One history and the broader Narrative of African American contributions to the United States military and Society well until next time I'm Heather Marie montia and happy reading [Music]